which model low angle block plane?

[cookie]

I am thinking about buying a low angle block plane of a proper brand, but I’m not sure which type…

The 60 ½ models with the adjustable mouth look nice, but are pricey and might be overkill for my occasional woodworking.
The 102 model (or veritas equivalent) is a bit simpler, but I won’t feel as guilty when I drop it and will probably get the job done as well.

Now my question is which model do you think is most suited for boatbuilding?

Thanks, Tom

[DuncanvdH]

I have both and prefer the 60 1/2... I actually have four blockplanes and the 60 1/2 is my favourite: it is a Stanley with a LieNielsen replacement blade (worth every penny).
I also have the Veritas low angle (too wide for my hand and uncomfortable grip but good for shooting small components) and the Veritas apron plane (too small) and the LieNielsen 102 (too small).



The 60 1/2 is just the right size for me, the Lee Valley too wide for my hands and the 102 a bit smallish.

I would not decide for yourself after you have had them in your hand, feel the grip and the weight.

Hee, Nederlands? ;-)

[DuncanvdH]

So if you have the money, I would by the LieNielsen adjustable mouth blockplane...

[goodbasil]

If you want to save some bucks find yourself a Stanley 60 and a half, buy a Veritas (Lee Valley) A2 or A1 cutter and shove it in. Make sure you get the right slot width, (5/8's or 7/16's) then flatten the sole and you should be quite satisfied. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=42607&cat=1,41182,43698&ap=

[cookie]

......

The 60 1/2 is just the right size for me, the Lee Valley too wide for my hands and the 102 a bit smallish.

I would not decide for yourself after you have had them in your hand, feel the grip and the weight.

Hee, Nederlands? ;-)

Hoi Duncan! Yep Nederlands indeed :D

I have a stanley bailey no 4, but am not impressed with the build quality, so yeah, I was tempted to go for the Lie Nielsen, but man, 165 Euro (1,42*165=many many $$)

[cookie]

If you want to save some bucks find yourself a Stanley 60 and a half, buy a Veritas (Lee Valley) A2 or A1 cutter and shove it in......

Hard to get a used and still working old stanley overhere. Going for about 65$$ + postage on dutch ebay :eek:

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

You can strike lucky - I scored a perfectly good Stanley 60 1/2 off UK ebay with a sweetheart iron for under ten pounds. The adjustable mouth clags up with gunge and people think they don't work any more - instructions in Blood and Gore, of course.

[DuncanvdH]

I am very happy with my Stanley with replacement blade. I have a No 4 Stanley with a LieNielsen replacement blade as well, from Baptist in Arnhem.

I brought my blockplane to Woodenboat school for a kayak building class, and everybody wanted to borrow it...

[goodbasil]

Sometimes I think it would pay for me to pack all my garage sell tools, charter a jet to Europe and set up right on the runway.
65$$ for a 60.5!!! Here the highest price you'd see in a flea market is $35, & if you can't get one for $20 - $25 there is something wrong with you.

[Mrleft8]

I don't like low angle planes in general. I haven't had any trouble planing end grain with a properly sharpened standard angle plane, and low angle planes are more likely to tear out squirrely grain.
That said, if I were to buy another low angle block plane, I would likely go with the Stanley 60 1/2... Try to find an old one, they're finished better. Get a "Hock" replacement blade for it (I think that's who supplies Lie Neilson).
Another option is to make your own. Get a nice chunk of some dense hardwood and make a few bodies with different angled beds. One nice iron (blade) can bounce from plane to plane depending on the job.

[cookie]

Another option is to make your own. Get a nice chunk of some dense hardwood and make a few bodies with different angled beds. One nice iron (blade) can bounce from plane to plane depending on the job.

Hmmm, that would probably be the most economical option.
You can get very nice antique wooden planes here with high quality blades for about 12 bucks. I could modify one into a smaller model.
Are the settings of wooden planes reliable? I mean, does the blade stay in the same position after you've adjusted it? It seems such an overly simple mechanism, with only a wooden wedge.

[Mrleft8]

I think that "customizing" an existing wooden plane would be more work, and less acurate than building new ones. Jim Krenov hasn't had any trouble with blade adjustment (and neither have I) in his wooden planes.
Plans for making a simple wooden plane are (I'm pretty sure) available on-line.

[cookie]

Allright, I've got lots of ideas now, thanks.

But first I'll scavenge ebay.uk. Who knows, I might get lucky there :)

[Mrleft8]

http://www.crfinefurniture.com/1pages/sitelinks/howplane.html
Here's the instructions I got when I attended "Kamp Krenov" in 1986.
You can change the angle of the bed, just remember that the relationship of the cross pin to the bed should remain constant.

[Lew Barrett]

I have an L-N 102 and it works very well in respect to the results it turns out, but
it's too small for my hands, and I don't have particularly big hands. For a touch here and there it's fine, but if I have a lot of shaving to do, it can be quite uncomfortable, and can even raise a blister. Despite the added expense, I would try their 60 1/2 if I were considering one of theirs if I were to do it over. That, or if you're looking to buy a new high end tool, look into the Lee Valleys. I don't think there's enough qualitative difference between either of those manufacturers to spit at, so it's a matter of how the plane fits your hand.
I think fit is the whole trick with a block plane if everything else is equal. Notwithstanding the rather small size of the 102, it works better than my old Stanley which is not retrofitted with a Hock blade....but probably should be, if I can ever find the damn thing again under the pile of crap on my bench!

[cookie]

Bump!

I have not been able to find an acceptably priced 60 ½ yet. However, I did manage to buy these for the whopping sum of 17 Euro (together).
http://diver.webs.com/BILD0485.JPG

http://diver.webs.com/BILD0495.JPG

Both planes have hardly seen any action and are made of beech wood by Nooitgedagt, a local tool brand that went out of business a couple years ago. As usual there is something wrong with them, but I think they are worth the effort of fixing them.


The larger one (65x6,5x6,5 lxwxh or nearly 27”) is warped very gently. When standing on a flat plate, the mouth section of the sole is 2mm higher than the front and rear.
Normally one fixes this by planning the sole flat with another plane and then some sanding on a flat plate, or at least, so I read. But wouldn’t it be possible to steam bend it back into a nearly straight shape?

http://diver.webs.com/BILD0486.JPG

The smaller one (7x2”) has some cracks in the body. One fairly large in the middle of the sole and two nasty ones in the corner of the mouth, extending upwards. The larger one was visible when I got it, the rest emerged when I whacked it on the bench to loosen the blade. I wonder about the cause for the cracks. Could this have occurred because the wood was too dry? Or as a result of the wedge being driven in way too far?

http://diver.webs.com/BILD0495a.JPG

http://diver.webs.com/BILD0496a.JPG

Now my idea was to fill the cracks with a glue that penetrates well and then clamp (or maybe even through bolt it permanently). But erhm… is there such a glue, that is rather liquid and works it way up through the cracks by means of capillary action?

[Raka025]

bump!

now my idea was to fill the cracks with a glue that penetrates well and then clamp (or maybe even through bolt it permanently). But erhm… is there such a glue, that is rather liquid and works it way up through the cracks by means of capillary action?



cpes

[cookie]

cpes

Hope I can find that in Europe :(

[coelacanth2]

I was introduced to MAS epoxy At WBS this summer, unthickened it penetrates small gaps very well. Another technique I've used is to put a dab of the mix on the crack, a layer of vacuum cleaner bag or similar on the other side and suck the stuff through with your shop vac - the filter keeps you from gooping up your hose - don't want a goopy hose.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

....Now my idea was to fill the cracks with a glue that penetrates well and then clamp (or maybe even through bolt it permanently). But erhm… is there such a glue, that is rather liquid and works it way up through the cracks by means of capillary action?...

Rule 1: Don't.#
Rule 2 (for experts) : Don't yet.

These are mostly "Checks" -probably as a result of the moisture content changing. - looks as though the bodies have been allowed to get damp, and then begun to dry out - the outside shrinks while the inside is still swollen with water.

Bring the wooden bits to where they will live and let the moisture content settle - this can take well over a year.

Then see what the problem looks like.

If you fill the existing checks with something rigid, then as the centre dries out, the epoxy (or whatever) will act as a splitting wedge....

[cookie]

Rule 1: Don't.#
Rule 2 (for experts) : Don't yet.


Bring the wooden bits to where they will live and let the moisture content settle - this can take well over a year.


If you fill the existing checks with something rigid, then as the centre dries out, the epoxy (or whatever) will act as a splitting wedge....

Think I'll go with option nr 2 then. Does that make me an expert? Or an expert #@*# :D

Good point about the splitting wedge thing. Had not thought of that.

How about the steam bending of the larger plane, crazy idea or worth a try?

[Paul Stohlman]

L-N 102 in bronze or iron. Mine is in constant use, adjustable throat (sp?) is sooo not needed. Buy it love it and shut up.

Thank you for the opportunity to rant.

[Peerie Maa]

Don't bother trying to steam out the bend, a waste of effort, and you will only kink the plane at the mouth, as you will not get enough flex in the rest of the body.
I'd recommend floating both plane bodies in raw linseed oil for several weeks. The cracks in the smoother should close up. If they don't, don't worry, the plane is not going to fall apart.
When the trying plane has settled down to your shop conditions, shoot the sole flat.

[peter radclyffe]

you have 100's of problems building a boat, its better to buy at least the cheapest good adj blade & mouth block plane, else when you hit a knot, or the temp changes, it desets, its like do you want to drive a horse & cart to work, or a reliable car
stanley & record are like fender & gibson,

[John Meachen]

Quite a few years ago I was given a wooden jack plane which had some of the problems of those show.I began by dismantling it and cleaning the iron and leaving the body on end in a shallow tray of linseed oil.After three weeks or so I switched the plane end for end and left the other end in the oil.Around half a litre was absorbed and the increase in weight was quite apparent.After another month or so the sharpened iron was replaced and the wedge slightly eased where it seated unevenly.The plane worked reasonably well and just needed a couple of fine shavings taken off the ends of the sole.I still have it and use it occasionally,the ease of adjustment of an iron plane is just too great an advantage.
I am sceptical about the advantages of a low angle block plane.I believe sharpness is more important than angle.An adjustable mouth is definitely useful if an awkward piece of wood is encountered.It might be worth browsing ebay to see what is available.

[peter radclyffe]

if sharp is more important, why did they invent a block plane http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

if sharp is more important, why did they invent a block plane

The common or garden block plane is the 9-1/2

Block Plane by Stanley (No. 9 1/2) features an adjustable mouth and a cutting iron that is bedded at a standard 20 degrees.

Given a 30° hone angle this presents the cutting edge at 20° and 50° - exactly the same as a "York Pitch" smoother - recommended for gnarly timbers.

An ordinary smoother, bedded at 45° and bevel down, presents the edge at 15° and 45°.

A low angle block like the 60-1/2 is bedded bevel up at 12° and presents the edge at 12° and 42°.


Of course if you skew the plane w.r.t. the pass, the presentation angles will drop - quite dramatically.......

You pays your money and takes your choice.

[John Meachen]

if sharp is more important, why did they invent a block plane http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

It fits in a smaller amount of space than a smoother and the principle of a flat lower surface to the iron,with the bevel on the upper surface would have probably split a piece of beech..I also suspect that the inventors managed to sell a lot of planes just on the basis of novelty.

[Stiletto]

I always thought that the block plane was originally intended for use on endgrain ,I dont know where in my dim distant memory I dug that up from.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I always thought that the block plane was originally intended for use on endgrain ,I dont know where in my dim distant memory I dug that up from.

That would be true for the low angle block plane IIRC.
Can anyone confirm or shoot this down?

[seanz]

Block....as in butchers block perhaps?
:)

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

York pitch is right for hardwoods; if the block plane was by origin a patternmaker's tool then it would have been dealing with knot free softwoods.

[seanz]

Bump!

I have not been able to find an acceptably priced 60 ½ yet. However, I did manage to buy these for the whopping sum of 17 Euro (together).

Both planes have hardly seen any action and are made of beech wood by Nooitgedagt, a local tool brand that went out of business a couple years ago. As usual there is something wrong with them, but I think they are worth the effort of fixing them.





http://diver.webs.com/BILD0486.JPG

The smaller one (7x2”) has some cracks in the body. One



Worth the effort? You'll put far less effort into fixing them than you will into using them. That is an excellent purchase....you've made someone in a country far, far away very, very jealous.
:D:cool:
I really like the old jointers with the saw-handle tote and haven't got one.....yet.

The cracks on the smoother are not significant and if it was mine I'd just ignore them. Small cracks are only a problem around the top near the wedge (and they're right under your thumb) as those can soon become large cracks.

Don't steam the jointer to flatten it, there's more than one piece of wood in that plane and you might (maybe) get a straight plane and a very crooked handle. Carpenters that owned and used these planes apparently* used to 'cheat' when they needed to flatten the sole on a worn jointing plane.......they ran them over an industrial planer :eek:

Buy some linseed oil and get a soft hammer for adjusting the blade ( there are tutorials on the web) and you'll be fine.
Good luck.


*Read this in an old carpentry manual and have not tried it myself, yet. A friend just bought a big electric jointer so maybe soon.
:)

[john welsford]

I recently bought a Stanley 90 1/2 and a Record no 4 brand new at a clearance sale, While the irons were way better than I'd expected, the finish and fits on the bodies and bits was very poor. I normally buy my planes in junkshops or on Trade Me ( our equivalent of Ebay ) and wont go above US$20. The older English made ones are pretty useful, remember that they were the tradesmans standard for many decades so ifset up right are well up to the job.
On blades, I have a "Hock" blade in one of my Number 3s, while it does feel better if I've put in 10 mins getting a super edge and I'm trying to do top grade furniture work, but still suffers when working plywood and glue joints which applies to most of my boatbuilding work. I'd not bother to pay for another one.
Note, in buying second hand planes, if you can get them cheap enough damaged ones are useful collections of spare parts so should you damage one or find another cheap one with different damage you are on a win.
Most of us have to build our boats on cement floors, and dropping a twenty dollar item does not ruin your day to the same extent that losing several hundred bucks to gravity and a hard surface does.
I find the 60 1/2 a more comfortable plane than the 90 1/2 as the narrower width is easier to hold on handed, plus its a fraction lighter. I use both of mine all the time and find them indispensable on plywood and end grain.
I do though have a Kunz 95mm low angle plane which is the only one of its type I've seen, and its excellent. The company is I think still in business and their product used to be well priced, Garrett Wade was my source.

John Welsford



I am thinking about buying a low angle block plane of a proper brand, but I’m not sure which type…

The 60 ½ models with the adjustable mouth look nice, but are pricey and might be overkill for my occasional woodworking.
The 102 model (or veritas equivalent) is a bit simpler, but I won’t feel as guilty when I drop it and will probably get the job done as well.

Now my question is which model do you think is most suited for boatbuilding?

Thanks, Tom

[peter radclyffe]

It fits in a smaller amount of space than a smoother and the principle of a flat lower surface to the iron,with the bevel on the upper surface would have probably split a piece of beech..I also suspect that the inventors managed to sell a lot of planes just on the basis of novelty.
ive known this for 30 years, im asking why you dont accept them John

[John Meachen]

I am entirely happy to use a Stanley 9 1/2 block plane so I suppose I must accept such things.

[Hughman]

cookie:

the wood planes should be 'tensioned' by wedging the blade as for use before deciding what to do about the sole. Planing off the bottom results in opening the slot...which is repairable by graving in a new piece, but if you don't need to, don't plane the bottom.

As for the checks, soaking in oil, or even - boiling - in raw linseed oil will solve most of that. It will change the shape a little probably, so wait till this is done before you adjust the sole.

Nice find, BTW. I like the wooden planes, even if they're fussier to use. They do a better job.

[cookie]

Wow, thanks for all the responses!

I've just finished cleaning the blades and put the bodies in a place where they can settle. Added a bit of weight (2kg) on top of the jointer to "motivate" it to bend in the desired direction. I don't think this bit of weight will distort the throat section. Now it's just wait and see :)

To get the rust out of the poors I left the blades in citic acid (lemon juice) over night. Never done that before, but it seemed to work quite well.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I recently bought a Stanley 90 1/2 and a Record no 4 brand new at a clearance sale, While the irons were way better than I'd expected, the finish and fits on the bodies and bits was very poor. I normally buy my planes in junkshops or on Trade Me ( our equivalent of Ebay ) and wont go above US$20. The older English made ones are pretty useful, remember that they were the tradesmans standard for many decades so ifset up right are well up to the job.
On blades, I have a "Hock" blade in one of my Number 3s, while it does feel better if I've put in 10 mins getting a super edge and I'm trying to do top grade furniture work, but still suffers when working plywood and glue joints which applies to most of my boatbuilding work. I'd not bother to pay for another one.
Note, in buying second hand planes, if you can get them cheap enough damaged ones are useful collections of spare parts so should you damage one or find another cheap one with different damage you are on a win.
Most of us have to build our boats on cement floors, and dropping a twenty dollar item does not ruin your day to the same extent that losing several hundred bucks to gravity and a hard surface does.
I find the 60 1/2 a more comfortable plane than the 90 1/2 as the narrower width is easier to hold on handed, plus its a fraction lighter. I use both of mine all the time and find them indispensable on plywood and end grain.
I do though have a Kunz 95mm low angle plane which is the only one of its type I've seen, and its excellent. The company is I think still in business and their product used to be well priced, Garrett Wade was my source.

John Welsford

With you all the way, there.

It is better to have, as I do, two number fours, a tidy one and a glue and plywood one, both scored off ebay and car boot sales, than one expensive one. I'm rather proud of my 1920's sweetheard iron Stanley 60 1/2 which came from ebay for under a tenner!