Strip plank removal and repair

[outofthenorm]

Hello all. I've got tricky plank removal problem that might yield to your collective experience. I'm replacing garboards and a few strakes above them on a strip plank boat. The 1" planks are glued to each other and edge nailed with galvanized steel nails every three inches (and screw fastened to bent frames!). The nails pass through 2 planks and half way through a third (about 2.5 inches long).
My problem is that the only way I can see to deal with the nails and the glue residue so as to get a perfectly clean edge on the plank I'm not removing is to somehow cut through the plank and the nails for the length of the plank (16 feet). I can't just hack the thing out and use a plane to true things up because of the nails that would remain.

I tried a cut off-disk, but that just burned the wood. I could try a circular saw or router, but the cutting edge is sure to blow up when it touches the first nail.

Does anyone know of a bit or blade or a gizmo that could do what I need? Or maybe a completely different strategy?

The boat is a 45 year old T Harrison Butler cutter I've owned for 25 years, so I want to do this right.

Thanks in advance.

Norm Lehman, Toronto

[Garrett Lowell]

The only thing I can think of is to use the circular saw or router up until you get to a known nail location, and then use a Sawzall. Otherwise, you'll just have to use the Sawzall to cut the whole length, and try to dress the edge as best you can after the fact. But hopefully somebody else has a better idea.

[Bob Smalser]

Last time I had to do something like that with steel drifts I used a Sawzall with both regular and bimetal blades, then I countersunk the drifts with a heavy hammer and punch deep enough to plane the messy edge sufficiently fair to take new wood. The few that wouldn't countersink I had to use a right-angle drill on.

Finish nails should be easier, although more numerous. Hopefully you already know the direction they were originally driven.

[ 03-18-2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[outofthenorm]

There are zillions of nails. The builder believed in overkill. They are long galvanized finishing nails put in from above. I'm coming from below of course. I can pull a lot of them, but I'll never get them all. I've never used a sawzall. Can you cut a straight line with it? I suppose I would cut just the areas between frames and them chisel the rest?

- Norm

[ssor]

Norm, I encounter problems like this in houses and have found that the metal cutting blades for the hand held scroll saws can handle the nails without complaint. Cut just inside the waste plank and chisel off the remainder to the joint line then put a mounted 1/4 inch shank grinding stone in a router and grind the nail stubs flush.
Someone else is gonna have to figure out how to nail the replacement planks.

[Jay Greer]

I am one of the guys who is quilty of building the first strip plank boats. So I guess I should come up with a simple solution for your problem. I knew back then when we did the first Lapworth 36's that there would be problems later on. We used bronze Anchor Fast Nails, rather than galvanised. But, the approach to repair should be the same. There are a few miniture Skill Saws, circular if you wish, on the market. Stock carbide and diamond blades are available or, can be made up by a saw shop.
The small saw is handy enough to guide along the glue seam and the small diameter blade will be easy to control. You should be able to cut nails as well as wood in one pass. Still, it is a bitch of a job to do. I would rather reef deck seams any day!

[Noah]

How about a jig saw with a bi-metal blade in it? It would probably be easier to control and have a finer cut than a sawsall. Also, because the blade is shorter you don't run the chance of hitting stuff on the inside.

[Ken Hutchins]

Diamond blades should not be used for cutting nails, use a borazon or carbide tipped blade or a slow speed saw with a high speed steel blade. When heated to the temperature you would get cutting nails and the diamond paticles in contact with any ferros metal - the nails, the diamonds experience a chemical reaction and revert to soft carbon and rapidly wear out. Although borazon is basically a man made diamond it does not react with ferros metals like natural diamond.

[RonW]

Jay Greer Says.

I am one of the guys who is quilty of building the first strip plank boats. So I guess I should come up with a simple solution for your problem. Thats interesting, since strip planked boats have only been built for the last - 120 years.
And they did not originate on the pacific coast in the state of Washington, but on the Atlantic side....say in the state of Maine..
Credit should be given, where credit is do.

[Puka]

I have exactly the same problem and have been tossing around options for months while the boat is drying.Very few planks need actually replacing.
But I will have to do all the glue lines, as shrinkage has rendered them suspect.Also, I will have to fasten every plank to its frame, or risk a fairing problem on re-gluing. Re-edge nailing is out of the question!
A skill saw and MANY tungsten blades seems the most likely.
ps1 I have a cold, so I can't smell smoke.

[George.]

Boy, I'm glad I used copper nails on Dalia...

Have you tried a light saber? :D

Seriously, here is a totally speculative, probably unworkable, idea. Use one of those saw-through-anything blades to get a cut about 3/4" above where you actually need to cut. It will ruin the wood, but you'll be able to see where all the nails are. Then chisel around the nail remains, bend them with pliers, and pull them out. Then go back with a proper wood saw and cut off the remaining 3/4".

But don't try it unless someone more knowledgeable than I posts saying that it might work... ;) smile.gif

[Bob Smalser]

Now that Noah mentioned it, I bet the big Bosch saber saw will do the job better using bimetal blades.

Sawzalls hide the line with debris as they cut and while could be precise in theory using the right nose adjustment and blade combo, they aren't near as precise because you can't see your durn line.

A carbide-tipped blade in the circular saw will be the most precise, but if the nails are any heavier than tiny brads the carbide gradually disintegrates and you'll go thru a lot of blades making a cut that long. You might buy a dozen blades and give it a try, tho.

[ 03-18-2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[outofthenorm]

Thanks everyone, for all the good thoughts so far. It looks like I might be investing in a pile of blades - style and size ans saw to be determined. A friend here suggested using an "end-mill" in a router to cut through everything. Apparently it's a bit for machining metal on a lathe, but I have no experience with that. Does it make any sense to any of you guys? - Norm

[Bob Smalser]

End mills of hard, HSS are made to spin in a milling machine a whole lot slower than in your router. I suspect you might dull or chip it pretty quick if the nails are of any size.....and the mills are spendy.

[Puka]

My gut feel is, lotsa teeth & not to small diam a blade so the angle of attack is flatter. And go SLOW!I have 6" to 13.5" to choose from the arsenal, but 600 lineal rules out the real biggies.
I guess the usual protective gear.
Could be some hot metal shards.

[Tristan]

I've both repaired and cut the sheer line on strip planked boats. Used my skill saw with carbide blade to chop through both wood and anchorfast (bronze) nails. Have also used a saber saw (hand held jig saw) to cut wood and finishing nails. No problems, though a saber saw blade (fairly fine tooth wood cutting blade) will occasionally break. Obviously this procedure will dull your blades. It is hard as hell or impossible to cut a perfectly even cut, but, HEY, epoxy evens out EVERYTHING.

[ 03-20-2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Tristan ]

[Bob Smalser]

Hey...it could be worse ;) :

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/4110272/51164668.jpg

[ 03-18-2005, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Gary E]

Credit should be given, where credit is do. Or, maybe the BLAME..

This looks like a job for one of those all purpose knifes you see on TV cooking shows that cuts thru tomatoes like hot butter, then the frozen steak and next the aluminum can and on to cutting into the head of a steel hammer head then returning to the tomatoe to show how sharp it still is. Modify one of them to fit your sawzall ( you should only need ONE ) and your all set... well, for slicing the lunch meat and tomatoes anyway.

Wish I could sugest something that stood 1/2 a chance of actually helping.

Good luck

[Puka]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p1db23b8618a56b38c961a1d910aee7f6/f4ca03d1.jpg

Thanks Tristan , thats the positivity we need.

64 glue-lines x 10.6m x nails/m =__?___blades

[Paul Maselli]

A Boat Building Machinist's point of view:

All of the suggestions above have problems. Any high speed cutter (Router bit, carbide skill saw, HSS Milling cutters HSS skill saw blades) will not last against steel nails. We've all hit a nail with a hand saw, band saw, skill saw, table saw, and know how quickly the blade's edge is killed. :mad:

A sawzall will do the rough job of exorcizing the old rotted wood but be very careful when you approach each and every frame. You don't want to be cutting off frame ends. :(

I would assume you are not going to cut out each 1" strip individually but you are going to treat the old plank section as that of a larger single plank or two.

If you do use a sawzall use it to cut out everything but the last 1 inch strip plank before the final cut.

Heres where we fall back and punt.

Think more traditional.

"16 feet of planking per side". Nails every 3 inches or so. Approx 64 nails per side (4 x 16) and 128 for port and starboard (64 x 2) to cut at the seam you want to be your new caulking edge and termination of the repair.

Remove every single screw possible that fastens the garboard to the rabbet and the strip planks to the frames. The goal here is to have the entire repair area loosey goosey and ready to fall out of the boat as you cut. Stationary objects tend to stay stationary. Objects free to move will do exactly that.

Now for Old Fashioned Grunt Work. Get yourself a couple of good quality hacksaw blades, and one large flat new #2 swiss pattern file. Pad one end of the hacksaw blade with a rag and electrical tape. Hand saw through the nails and glue seam. I've used this method to remove fastening in lapstrake plank repair and the fasteners cut quickly with a few pull strokes of the hacksaw blade. I would guess that 30% of the nails diameter has succumbed to rust. That leaves less to cut. Two hours work per hull side (A little optimism helps) ;)

File the remaining nails and the remaining wood flat, fair, and flush to accept the new wood.

Good Old Fashion Hand Tools, Ask you Grand Dad about them!!!

Good Luck.

TheMobileBoatwright

[outofthenorm]

With gratitude for everyone who replied, I think that for me and my skills, Paul's suggestion is the way to go. My first choice is always hand tools (except for big sawing and big sanding)and I like the idea of doing this without the screeching of a whirling blade striking steel or dodging hot flying metal chunks. I'm going to try the heavy grunting old-fashioned way tomorrow and see how far I get. Hell, two or three (or four) hours doing that sure beats going to a gym and sweating in public. I do intend to treat the old strips as one big plank and I'll remove all the screws before I cut anything. I removed one garboard last week and so far the screws have been backing out just fine with a brace.

I gotta say, I'm pretty impressed by the knowledge and experience that's available through this forum. Hats off to Woodenboat and to all you guys who don't mind sharing. As I work through this job, I'll be posting more questions, so thanks in advance.

[Bob Smalser]

64+ linear feet of cutting through 1" nailed and glued/gooed stock with a taped-up hacksaw blade?

Give it a try, but I'd sure have a backup plan. ;)

[ 03-19-2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[L.W. Baxter]

This is how I would visualize it, from an amature perspective:

I would tack a batten to the hull to run my skilsaw against, set the blade shallower than the nails, and cut a very nice, clean line that way.

Then I'd finish the cut with with a jig saw. The jig saw will follow the track made by the circular saw.

I'd make transverse cuts with a recip saw to remove the rotten planking in chunks. That way, I'd only have to deal with a few of the frame fastenings at a time. The chunks of planking themselves might serve as leverage in the fight.

I might not have to dress the longitudinal cut at all, just mix some epoxy glue nice and thick to fill any gaps with the new planking. I'm trying to get back on the water here, right? I'd suck it up tight, I bet I could keep the gaps under 1/8".

Hey, that sounds easy! :D Good luck!

--Lee

[Paul Maselli]

Originally posted by Bob Smalser:
64+ linear feet of cutting through 1" nailed and glued/gooed stock with a taped-up hacksaw blade?

Give it a try, but I'd sure have a backup plan. ;) Check my math but I believe it was 16 ft per side not 32. 64 nails....

TheMobileBoatwright

[outofthenorm]

32 ft is correct. I'm cutting through one plank each side and removing everything below to the rebate. Also, I don't have to use tape, because I have the tool shown below. It's an antique and is very comfortable to use.
I also have a back up plan! ;) This afternoon I bought a circular saw blade made by DeWalt called a "nail cutting blade". It's recommended for renovators who have to cut 2x that might have nails. If the armstrong method doesn't work, I'll go back to power.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p9e979711e9d2246152d9b0e2ad7c4efc/f4c74c9c.jpg

[Bob Smalser]

I'm thinking you may do more a lot more cutting than you intend. Pulling galvanized nails out of what was originally the greenish oak they were driven into in stem and keel may be difficult. Ever try to dismantle an oak pallet? Hopefully they've deteriorated a bit.

A catspaw'll damage good framing. See if you can borrow one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002N7SD/qid=1111296310/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/002-8615348-0660808?v=glance&s =hi

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00002N7SD.01-A2N6NO8W19JCUN._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Puka]

Thanks for the tip Norm on the Dewalt nail cutting
blade.Didn't know they existed.Excellent!
http://www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/32/p2256932_l.jpg

I will give it a trial run this week!

I would, also, like to endorse Norm's words of appreciation on the help freely offered by members
of WBF. The "engineroom" of minds here most often comes up with more efficient and effective ways of doing things.

One can easily drown in the multiplicity of issues on a project.

Hats off to you guys!

[outofthenorm]

Hoo-Haw! :D I am happy to report that the Dewalt Nail Cutting blade works as advertised. I set up a batten to guide the saw, set the depth to 1/8 less than the plank and had the seam cut in 15 minutes. I spent the rest of the day drawing the screws and the old planks came off all in one piece.

The Dewalt blade must be some hard steel because it didn't even notice the nails. Felt about the same as hitting a knot in the wood.

For the record, the nails are 1/8 galvanized steel hammered into 1x1 white cedar.

Thanks for the help everyone. - Norm

[StevenBauer]

And where, might we ask, was your camera while all this was going on?
:D

Steven

[Puka]

Damn! :mad:
I can't buy one of those puppies for love nor money here. Seems our market is too small to import this specialist item.
Looks like I might have to order a ten pack from
the good ol' US of A.
Glad to hear they work so well!
Norm-- Was the code on your blade DW3591?
cheers

[outofthenorm]

Sorry, I left the saw on the boat, so I can't check until next week. However, it looks exactly like the one you posted with the odd boomerang-ish cutouts. It had the words "nail cutting blade" right on it.

Hope you find one. It's the answer!

- Norm

[RonW]

All you really need is a high quality very multi toothed carbide blade, wear a face mask and saw slowly. On a standard 7&1/4 inch circular saw, you need a good 24 tooth or even a 30 tooth if you can find one. I have cut aluminum channel,steel siding, cultured marble and the list goes on. Wear a face mask and saw slowly, it will cut the trim nails with no problem. Don't buy a cheap one, buy the exspensive ones.

[Tim B]

Norm,

Could you update us on your project. I am interested in hearing how you re-planked.

-tim

[outofthenorm]

No problem Tim, except I'm a long way from the actual replanking! I didn't get much done in the last two weeks - something about earning money to make mortgage payments or some such. I've posted a few before and during pics at Imagestation.

Fiddlers Green Repairs (http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2128733540)

[Stiletto]

Puka ,how much per blade does it work out if you bring in a ten pack of those specials? If ten is more than you need I may be up for one if they arent ridiculously priced. I've found that Dewalt gear seems to be a bit overpriced here. I think their motto is'good gear, too dear'.

[Puka]

I managed to get two ($32US including air freight) to confirm they are significantly better than a good TC blade here. I haven't tried them yet. Have to remove the yanmar & turn the boat
over. So don't hold your breath!
Besides, I have a surplus of dullish blades here.
If I decide to get more, I'll get an extra. $16US is a pretty good price methinks!

[outofthenorm]

Puka, methinks as you do that $32 US is a good price. My blade was $20 CDN retail.

[Stiletto]

That is a good price, I expected a lot more.
What diameter?

[ 04-01-2005, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Stiletto ]

[Puka]

7.25", 16mm arbor. But looks like I will be paying
more as those were the last 2 at that price.
They are also thin kerf, which doesn't really suit,as I have to clear out all the old glue.