How do Bolger boats really sail?

[Red_Doc]

I really admire Phil Bolger's philosophy and approach to life in most regards. I'm puzzled as to why his boats have not caught on more if they work so well - unless human beings really are hobbled by superstition and tradition and lots of close-minded conventional 'wisdom.'

SO - HOW do Bolger boats really sail? Which ones can be used safely AND COMFORTABLY for near coastal sailing and not just lakes and ponds? While they may sail well and true and even fast, are his heavily rockered shallow draft sharpie-type boats (or other designs) comfortable enough to actually sail in 1 to 3 foot seas?

Lots of people have lots of opinions based on how a boat 'looks' or what theory 'says' it should do... but we want some real honest answers by people with real EXPERIENCE sailing his boats who actually KNOW what the dang-nabbit they are talking about.

I can't go out and sail all of Phil Bolger's designs in all kinds of weather and sea conditions to figure this out for myself. There must be some accumulated reliable wisdom among those who HAVE actually sailed his boats extensively but are NOT blind accolytes of Phil Bolger...

I'll confess that i'm spoiled by the smooth glide and roll of old Alden Barnacle class sloops and S&S Loki yawls, but they shove a huge amount of water out of their way and cannot get anywhere close to land where all the fun and beauty is with their deep draft...

Do shallow draft Bolger boats pound bad in a Narragansett chop? Can they be safely sailed in most conditions on Penobscot Bay? How about a day trip out to Martha's Vineyard?

In sum, are they sea kindly and enjoyable to sail or will they make me puke and shake my harrowed head in disgust?

[Captain Blight]

WBM did an article on this about 10 years ago, they compared a couple designs. Birdwatcher in particular is said to be a very comfortable boat in any reasonable sea-state. Not something you'd want to cross the North Atlantic with in January, but you can't have everything.

Another of his designs that might appeal to the more traditionally-minded is his St-Valery (http://timkeeshen.tripod.com/thebuildingofstvalery/). Modelled after Breton fishing luggers, it partakes of what WBM called "the seaworthiness of the beach ball."

[Mark Van]

Bolger has designed over 650 different boats, so you may need to be a bit more specific in what designs you are talking about.

[P.L.Lenihan]

As Mark mentions,over 650 designs and I might add, most of them designed to the specific requirements of the client. You may wish to contact the good office of PCB & F's here:
P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

and share with"them" your specific requirements and see what is suggested.

As to "HOW do Bolger boats really sail?" Perhaps it would be more productive for you if we knew HOW good a sailor are you and HOW much experience you have. In concert with this may also be the question of whether you want to build the boat yourself,have it built or perhaps buy used.So many(too many?) variables to allow a predictable outcome.

As I'm certain you already know, there is no one boat or design that will satisfy completely, on all waters,in all weather, your every desire. Boats are an intelligent collection of compromises as should be your reasonable expectations.



Cheers!


Peter, a very satified owner/builder of three Bolger boats......I may be just a wee bit biased so forgive me my enthusiasm:)

[Red_Doc]

Oy Vey !

Criminy... yes, we're aware that Phil Bolger has drawn just about everything.

With due respect to Phil's incredible talent and breadth, when someone says 'a Bolger boat' they generally mean what he is most (in)famously known for - slab sided flat bottomed shallow drafted often lee boarded boats that no one has ever seen before.

If we were discussing his more conventional designs, we wouldn't have to ask the question of how they sail because that's what every other designer does and they are everywhere to try out a sail on. I have the WB article from way long ago and it discusses ideas and theories plenty with some very nice photos - but it still is all talk in flat water. :) We want the REAL story! :)

I certainly would not be one to ask any question and certainly such an awkward question of Suzanne Altenberger right now considering everything that's going on in her life.

Having mentioned some pretty obscure traditional wineglass designs in an earlier post, we can probably dispense with the 'how much sailing have we done?" question. Any design should be reasonably forgiving and not as untamed as a whitbread.

As for the old saw of not every boat for every weather for every purpose - that is an old and obvious saw which we should not forget. Thank you. As mentioned in the original post, we are talking semi-protected coastline in average conditions where Phil Bolger claimed they could do fine, no tripping over keels, surfing easily, etc.

I think it would really help this forum *and* wooden boat magazine's fall tribute to Phil's life to have more real life stories of sailors sailing his most radical signature designs in real life and less than flat water. So who has any useful experience sailing his signature sharpie (or other) shallow draft trailerable sailboats in less than flat water?

ARE such Bolger boats safe to sail in normal moderate waves? Or let's at least ask the simpler and still very apropos question - are they sea kindly? are they comfortable to sail?

...Or are they about as sea-sickeningly nauseating to ride in when things pick up as a square flat bottomed john boat?

We (me and my children) are really looking forward to your actual experience sailing a Bolger boat.

Thank you!

[rbgarr]

Forum member Lance Gunderson has spent the past month sailing his Bolger 'Black Skimmer' design along the coast of Maine from Kittery east. It's likely he's encountered the conditions you ask about on this cruise and others. Try sending him a PM and you'll get an answer in time.

[adampet]

Also look to postings by Stu Fyfe. He takes his Bolger REDWING around Cape Cod Bay and as far as Mystic CT. Look for his Provincetown thread. It does have some comments about sailing.

Adam

[James McMullen]

I've built quite a few Bolger designs myself, including these sailboats:

Teal
Surf
Pirogue
Cartopper
Instant Catboat
Light Schooner

My take? All of them sail adequately for entertainment. None of them really sail well in comparison to other, less simplified designs. I got a great deal of enjoyment and building experience from putting together these Bolger boats, but I, myself am no longer content with the compromises that simplified building methods force on you.

"They sail just as well as conventional boats!" is advertising copy. They don't. They are simpler to build than many other boats and still might be a great way to get an inexpensive homebuilt boat if you have limited woodworking experience. But if you are a competitive and active sailor I suspect you will get frustrated and bored with them fairly quick.

I am thoroughly disenchanted with flat-bottomed sharpies of any type for the waters I live near, though. Cold water and tides rips are not these sailboats' friends.

[Captain Charlie]

Just launched our Bolger Bobcat for the first time today (built from the Instant Catboat book) and I must say it sailed beautifuly. Have some adjustments to do on the rigging but for the most part, it behaved well and was stable and fast.

Charlie

[Red_Doc]

That's a hugely helpful bit of news, James.

If i may attempt to read your experience well, Phil Bolger can design beautiful boats that sail very well, but he is best known to many for his ability to design very easy to build boats that sail surprisingly well despite being simple or looking funny (sometimes).

I've been reading some more of Phil's books this weekend and catching a few hints of the trade-offs involved that he recognizes in the fine print but get lost in the well-meaning marketing of supporters.

Perhaps his simple and sharpie-derived designs get 80% of the performance of a well rounded boat with more hollows and flare?

Regarding his niche reputation for shallow draft, leeboard, and flat bottom sharpie-derived boats, do they achieve good all-around performance with a very comfortable ride?

To be seaworthy they, like any boat, require sensible and proper handling by a good skipper. For instance, Phil writes that a dovekie has gone across the gulf stream, but that does not mean that should be done or encouraged.

For maximum comfort and cruising performance (reliability and ease of use) in a small sailboat, has experience (and the market of common opinion) shown that low tabernacle mast, wide low-aspect sails, cat ketch and sprit rig (that thing with a snotter), and centerboard make for a better shallow draft gunkholer that can coast?

Are the juries still out on lee-boards (noise, banging, flutter, flotsam snagging but the best grip in the shallowest water), flat sides and bottom (pound and slap and spray and jerk except amidships), and minimal to no ballast which makes a boat trailerable and shallower but leaves it to bob and jerk nauseatingly in any wave and unable to keep way on like a cork on the water?

It is amazing what boundaries Phil explored and the many old assumptions he tested. He has done an amazing service to nautical history and design. It is a shame that other talented designers haven't done as much in their many years of presumed effort. Perhaps the key was that he worked on very small boats where risks can still be taken and tested in the marketplace. Now so much has fallen victim to the marketers of the boating industry who feed the common ignorance of boat buyers who do not make their living on the sea and know not what a good boat can be.

I have nothing much against plastic or stainless (just a little old prejudice), nor am i that attached to old and traditional designs that we have to stick with what we've always had - heck, who wants a square-rigged papyrus raft from ancient Egypt anyways? Times do change, but the human eye can always appreciate the truly beautiful...

And much of what Phil Bolger designed may be described as the real deal, real original outside-the-box-of-convention thinking approaching, as others have written, the less accessible esthetic beauty of Picasso's late work.

So here is the real question with many easy answers - how can so many THOUSANDS of boat buyers NOT see Phil's beauty AND decline traditional boat designs that are fair and beautiful to the untrained eye in FAVOR of choking on fat boats, reverse hog sheers and foolish streamlining for appearance with no function that even comes close to Phil's?

Are they really so foolish and stupid? Has Adam Smith's 'free market' really failed so badly? Or are we prejudiced and acting superior without justification or gain?


p.s. Which of Phil's small trailerable sailboat designs might sail as well as any traditional design near shore and not run aground in 2 feet of water ?

[Dave Davis]

Sailed a Black Skimmer with Key Largo Shoal Water cruises over twenty years ago throughout Florida Bay.

For its purpose, the Black Skimmer was ideal. Thin and protected from the ocean waters, the ability to ground out on her bottom, simple and functional rig. The rig was easily handled in flat water and had plenty of sail to move the boat, as long as you weren't pounding to weather (which the flat bottom, hard chined sharpie wouldn't do very well anyway.) Small outboard pushed the boat just fine.

Black Skimmer wouldn't be as well suited up here in the Sound's short chop, heavy SW'ly winds, and no real need for shoal draft and/or the capability of the leeboards to sail in very shallow water. Perhaps she'd go to Block Island on a good day, perhaps not. Huge open cockpit and low freeboard would give me the willies going across Brenton Reef out towards Cuttyhunk but you could sneak around the corner in good weather, maybe. Certainly wouldn't want to pound to windward at Beavertail in 4 foot short period seas in one. On the other hand, for a two week cruise in protected waters like Narragansett Bay where you could wait out nastiness and motor in the calms, why not?

Depends on your tolerance for pain and what you're willing to risk. There's a great essay by Lance Gunderson in Stan Grayson's book "Sailing Small" (Deveraux Books, 2004, isbn: 1-928862-08-X) titled, "A Sharpie, A Catboat, and A Sloop," where Lance owned and cruised a Black Skimmer, sailed a Marshall 18 south to Florida, and ended up with a Rhodes Ranger. His discussion of the Black Skimmer is a pretty fair assessment of its utility for New England sailing. Actually, this is a great book overall for the topic.

[BillKing]

Red_Doc, others,
I completed my Bolger Long Micro (LM) in August 2007. I sailed her from August 2007 until mid-July 2009 and during that time I logged around 650 nautical miles in Lake Erie. I generally day sailed, so I tried to avoid really nasty weather. I sailed in winds from a dead
calm to sustained winds in them mid-20 knot range, and gusts up to 30 knots (per the various weather buoys and stations in Lake Erie. I do not have an anemometer on my LM).

After I sailed I checked the weather buoy data from NDBC buoy 45005 (in Lake Erie), and according to the buoy data, the biggest waves I ever encountered were 3 feet. They looked like 5 footers to me, and the fishermen were reporting six footers on the VHF. I guess everyone exaggerates wave heights. I have sailed over shoaling areas in the Lake, where the waves appear to grow, and have seen wave crests higher than the cockpit coaming (which suggests waves greater than 3 feet high). Waves of these heights never concerned me much.

My other sailing experience comes from building and sailing a Bolger Gypsy (unballasted 15 footer), a 40-odd foot Hunter for a week in Florida, a string of 40-odd foot Beneteaus (and a catamaran) in the Caribbean, and day sailing on a Catalina 30, also on Lake Erie. As a pup I sailed a bit around coastal Massashucetts. In other words, nobody mistakes me for Hornblower but I don't squeal when I get splashed by water.

The LM isn't exactly the modal boat to address part of this question about Bolger boats. She has a short, fixed keel with lead and water ballast. But she is a sharpie with big, slab sides. Here are my observations sailing her in Lake Erie.

First, she will pound her bottom when motoring directly into waves. But I have never seen her pound when sailing b/c she heels enough to present a "v" shaped chine to the waves, and she cannot point directly into the waves anyway. For the most part, the "sharpies pound" thing hasn't been an issue, but I almost always sail to windward instead of motoring.

She sails well to windward. Not great, but not horrible. I think the nut on the end of the tiller has a lot to do with boat performance, so put my experience into context with my mediocre ability to get other boats to go to windward. After sailing I look at my GPS tracklogs on my computer and determine my CMG to windward when tacking. On a Beneteau I can get a CMG of around 50-55 degrees. On my LM I can get 60 degrees. My LM will hold 60 degrees in big waves and small, with reefs tied in or not. In very smooth water in the lee of Middle Bass Island I once got her to 55 degrees CMG in a string of tacks, but those were perfect conditions. I will regularly sail to windward in the Lake while other, plastic boats are motoring. In mid-July I spent the night in Schoolhouse Bay (off of Middle Bass I., in Lake Erie). The wind was on the nose from the anchorage but I tacked in and dropped the hook without using the outboard. Every other boat motored in, some from quite a distance out. So I'm a little incredulous that people think Bolger boats are designed to motor to windward. I spend the majority of my sailing time going to windward.

Off the wind. She hauls (for a 19.5 foot long boat). Off the wind a bit- beam reach to beam run- and she will regularly hit mid-6 knot speeds and I've seen a few short stints of 7.2 knots. This summer I was following a plastic sloop (around 30 feet long) and we were both on a beam run. I kept up with them and was a little surprised I couldn't reel them in. And that's saying something when a boat 19.5 feet long expects to reel-in a 30 footer.

I also like her manners and helm better than the plastic boats I've sailed. She's a polite, gentle, well-mannered boat. She tracks well and sails straight. Other boats I've sailed require constant attention and tweaking.

So, I think the LM is a great coastal cruiser and can handle substantial, rough water. She's not a blue water boat and she has her limits. If the conditions were right I'd sail her anywhere in the coastal area of the Great Lakes and think she'd do well around coastal New England. I very happy with my LM and have no plans of building or buying another boat to replace her.

If you want to see video of me sailing my LM on Lake Erie in a range of conditions, see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg5iRw0xpYg

Bill

[Tom Hunter]

Here is a wonderful description of the qualities of the light schooner, along with some funny music added in the last few months:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/index.htm

[James McMullen]

What's "good enough" performance mean to you? My Stone Horse Sloop won't beat an Etchells dead to windward, but either of these would utterly clobber a Long Micro or a Black Skimmer in an all-day long course beating upwind. So whom do you sail with? Do you care whether or not you pass other boats or they pass you? Do you care whether you use a motor freely to get uphill or are you a sailing purist, delighting in doing it under sail alone? Everyone spends most of their time sailing to windward, remember? It's Murphy's Law.

Generally speaking, you'll tend to be faster than boats that are shorter than you and slower than boats that are larger than you. . . .so that changes your perspective a little no matter what you're sailing. I would find a course made good of only 60 degrees to the wind to be excruciating--since I'm used to better than that even in my open (but admittedly non-traditional) sail & oar boat--but an old timey schooner captain would think that's just great!

Is 80% of the performance okay? Even 95% performance would still be 1/20th worse than someone else's boat. Are you okay with that? I've decided that I myself am not.

I think Bolger's best small trailerable sailboat is his Chebacco design--but I'd still build Iren's Romilly, a similar type of more complex construction but with much higher sailing performance, instead.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I'll take a lazy sail that is only 90 percent as fast as a go-fast design any day. Lazy sailing is a large part of many Bolger designs. My Dovekie was about the most perfect boat I've every sailed and required almost no effort once underway. Lazy sailing was the best thing about my Freedom 33--not a Bolger design, of course. I chose a junk rig for the 42 foot schooner I built for the same reason. Set the sails then take it easy and steer.

Flat bottomed sharpies may not be suited for crossing oceans but they can easily handle the sort of chop you'll likely see in coastal cruising. If you sail them as intended (with one chine immersed, the other clear) they won't do any harm to your teeth. :)

[Red_Doc]

I've never gone in for speed much - most of my old boats would do 6 or 7 in a heavy beat or reach, but i've always enjoyed smooth ghosting comfort most of all - or riding smoothly through and rolling gently along with the swells.

Never cared much for *grounding out* or staying too far away from land to enjoy the view to avoid grounding out or the *quick jerky* motion of the too many too light too fat too short plastic motorboats that are everywhere.

That's how i'd sum up the performance i do and don't like - safe gentle motion that can enjoy being close to water and land.

How does that shape up?

[Red_Doc]

I'll take a lazy sail that is only 90 percent as fast as a go-fast design any day. Lazy sailing is a large part of many Bolger designs. My Dovekie was about the most perfect boat I've every sailed and required almost no effort once underway. Lazy sailing was the best thing about my Freedom 33--not a Bolger design, of course. I chose a junk rig for the 42 foot schooner I built for the same reason. Set the sails then take it easy and steer.

Flat bottomed sharpies may not be suited for crossing oceans but they can easily handle the sort of chop you'll likely see in coastal cruising. If you sail them as intended (with one chine immersed, the other clear) they won't do any harm to your teeth. :)

What led you to let go of the Dovekie? Was it just plain too small? Why did they lose popularity after 150-odd hulls?

I'd love to get a closer look at his larger Shearwater - a Dovekie on steroids - if i have the name right. Both hull molds now collect trash and rain water out back in the boat yard they were born in.

It was hard visiting the Edey and Duff yard last month. I'd sum it up as kind folks in a sadly too quiet place with so many old and seeming unused boat sheds echoing the busy past out back, a breakwater channel that can't be dredged to haul the big boats, and an uncertain future because of sadly misplaced and misguided environmental rules and the constant march of economic change.

Compared to what nature or any wild and woolly storm may do, a little channel dredging there in the middle of nowhere ain't much to worry about... certainly not when people are starving in this world and we cain't even treat each other with enough kindness and generosity. Massachusetts government is one wacked out place with our priorities all wrong here.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Why did I let go of the Dovekie? It went to the ex- in a divorce, I kept the big boat. The spruce mast wasn't protected for years and the boat was finally sold for pennies. I suspect someone had to make a new mast or buy one from E & D.

There's a guy on here with a Shearwater, Nicholas Scheuer (sp?), I believe. He has a great blog elsewhere about cruising with another Shearwater up in Maine.

[Red_Doc]

Oh....

sorry to hear.

Would it ever sail comfortably in good weather close in along the coast or across to Martha's Vineyard?

The kind fellow who built their hulls over at Edey & Duff said they're awfully tippy - the Shearwater's 'a lot more boat.'

Still can't figure out why the market disappeared on ultra shoal draft boats like those.

[James McMullen]

I own an Edey & Duff built boat too, a Stone Horse Sloop. With a displacement of 4500 lbs, it draws all of 3' 6" :eek:. . . . . .but is comfortable and safe and able even in not very good weather in water four feet or deeper. Everybody who's ever sailed one likes how seakindly and well mannered the Stone Horse is. Super shoal draft requires a great deal of compromise. If you don't need it, you'll have a more comfortable boat in every way by adding some draft and some displacement.

http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/42358/2125120870088484686S600x600Q85.jpg

Certainly, there's a risk of fads and herd mentality in following what's currently popular. . . .but the collective wisdom is rarely wrong all the way to the core. There is indeed a reason why flat bottomed sharpies aren't the most popular type of boat despite how cheap and easy they are to build.

[rbgarr]

I think 150 boats built to the Dovekie design is a substantial accomplishment, and I wouldn't wonder if it were Bolger's most-built design, at least in the 'production fg field'.

[Bob Cleek]

Boat designs are like anything else designed by man, whether it be art or technology. There's a process of natural selection at work. If the design has enough merit, people built it. If not, it fades into obscurity. Mr. Bolger is recently deceased. He reputedly designed over six hundred boats, which is some feat. Few design firms of long standing have as many numbered designs, but then again, most designers only design boats when they are commissioned to do so and, since the advent of fibreglass mass production, there aren't a lot of one-off bespoke yachts being designed and built. William and John Atkin are also deceased, one much longer than the other. The Herreshoffs, father and son, also designed many boats. They probably are, together, close to as prolific as Mr. Bolger.

So, we will just have to see if a generation or three down the road people are referring to Bolger designs as "classics" and still building to his plans, or, like many other designers of times past, Bolger's designs will fail the test of time and only be a footnote of interest in the history of small craft development.

[Red_Doc]

Beautifully spoken, Bob.

I've admired your posts going back over ten years, and for good reason.

But, and perhaps this is a terribly shallow desire, have you no personal opinion based on your own wisdom of the man and his designs?

And, based on the BEAUTIFUL hull lines of his Shearwater mold sitting behind Edey and Duff's, given the freedom of fiberglass it would seem that his ideal hull shape is certainly MUCH more than two plywood sheets chined together (pardon my grammatical liberties)... don't you think?

[Paul G.]

Dunno about you guys but 80% of owning a wooden boat is about fair curves, eye pleasing shapes and aesthetics. Hence the love of bronze & woodgrain. Sailing ability is very important but that goes with the territory, who wants a boat that sails just ok but looks like crap?

Thinking outside the square and building oddball boats is ok too, but time will reveal all as Bob has mentioned. I think the main reason for bolger boxes is summed up in one word...cheap! Cheap to build, cheap to learn the skills. they look cheap and by all acounts sail cheap too. They remind me of the "lets build a big ****box out of ferro in the back yard or on the commune" kind of boats.

I would never build one or buy one, when there are so many other beautiful boats to build unless I only had a few bucks a tube of poly glue and some crate plywood and I had to flee Guantanamo in a big hurry.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Any boat can be built poorly,with poor materials and be made to look cheap.That is the easy part. However, the horizon is wide open and the sky's the limit if one should wish to strive for something better than a "****-box" appearance. The **** box shown bellow has always looked good to my eye, considering it only took 14 sheets of plywood and some fun time to build.
But that is a worthless observation since the bias in the first part of that last statement is huge.I built that floating piece of ****e :D:D:



Cheers!


Peter







http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d638b3127ccec7b3cfa9fd9100000040O02BauGzJmyZA9 vPgo/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

[Red_Doc]

I've just read some shallow water sailor stories on their website and spoken with a leading member of their group.

It seems the bayhen and others of that sort may be a bit too tippy for 2 and 3 foot seas, but Bolger's Dovekie design can handle that in Penobscot bay. Then again i found there stories of some fragility of leeboards on the larger Shearwater yawl design.

I still wish she had more old-fashioned lines, but the Dovekie is eminently functional. Really that's all that old-fashioned lines were when they weren't old yet - they are functional for their time as much as the Dovekie is functional in fiberglass and shallow draft now.

My Alden barnacle class sloop had beautiful old-timey vertical cabin front and sides - no streamlining like the Loki i've just restored nor like the extreme streamlining on fiberglass boats. But right angles of the cabin are easier to make and easily strongly fastened together in wooden beams whereas fiberglass (generally) neither likes right angles nor is very stiff in flat panels attached at right angles.

Fiberglass as we know prefers compound curves for stiffening with less right angles to avoid stress risers. So what appears old or new can be viewed in a different light as the same thing - functional defined by the physical properties of the material used. Which prompts the question - is tradition simply what we no longer see and sentimentally miss? Which scares me with the proposition that an old hunter or IOR boat may soon begin to appear traditional and stir feelings of sentiment. Which shames me that i may be prejudiced without fairness or reason.

Either way, i've driven us farther off topic - which remains does anyone else have further actual experience sailing Phil Bolger's larger shallowest draft designs so that they can counsel us on what sailing such boats can safely and comfortably (if not quickly) perform?

Looking forward to more feedback for the forum!

[P.L.Lenihan]

Recieved a few PMs stating my photo was not visible other than the dreaded Red X. I think I have fixed it now but let me know if not.


Cheers!


Peter

[Red_Doc]

Oh, that IS a really sweet looking boat. REALLY pretty in a classic kind of way - maybe the color scheme gives it that extra punch and panache.

It's a Micro, yes?

------

On another performance note, i found this quote from Mark Zeiger of Alaska about his Martha Jane -

"No disrespect to those who have had unpleasant experiences with their MJs, but I think a lot of people (and I fear the majority of these were armchair sailors) took a quote from a _Woodenboat_ article too far, and to heart. The article said "The MJ should be self righting . . ." meaning the author thought it would be self righting in most situations. I think this led to the idea that it WAS self righting, and when it turned out not to be in some situations (although there are many cases where MJs have come right back up after knock downs) people became concerned.

I think that the original design of the MJ is one of Mr. Bolger's most enduring designs because it offers a lot of features that make it a fine boat. If you like it, build it and sail it, and disregard the opinions of this list. What we do here is fun, but no one should live their life by committee."

[rbgarr]

So what appears old or new can be viewed in a different light as the same thing - functional defined by the physical properties of the material used. Which prompts the question - is tradition simply what we no longer see and sentimentally miss? Which scares me with the proposition that an old hunter or IOR boat may soon begin to appear traditional and stir feelings of sentiment. Which shames me that i may be prejudiced without fairness or reason.

My take is that when people speak of 'traditional boats' they refer to an aesthetic of curves and shapes rather than materials function as mentioned above. An older fiberglass Rhodes sailboat design may be thought of as traditional because of its shape, while a Boston Whaler from the same era may not.

[Red_Doc]

I believe it is important to be very precise in our frames of reference. 'Traditional' is a term used by some enthusiasts to separate older boats they like from boats old and new that they don't like, but at that point the term begins to become very imprecise.

A 'traditional' boat or boat style is simply a style older than current boat style, a style with a history usually measured in 1 or more human generations, some being prettier than others (but beauty remains in the eye of the beholder - leaving plenty of room to allow that Bolger boxes can be like a Picasso painting and legitimately beautiful to at least some people). After several more generations such a boat design that we now call 'traditional' often becomes more *historic* than traditional as time moves on.

This is where i would plead for folks to consider the function underlying how that 'traditional' aesthetic came about - a papyrus boat on the Egyptian Nile is not an Irish coracle is not an Inuit Qayak is not a Thames barge is not an S&S yawl is not a Bolger plywood micro. Each 'traditional' aesthetic depends on the material available to use. Each boat appears different because it used different materials and available technology at different points in human history .

Thus at any point in history boats have been a combination of varying degrees of beauty and function AS THE PHYSICAL PROPERTIES of the materials at hand (and the economics of construction technology) have allowed. People use the term 'traditional' to mean older designs of greater cultural acceptance and common use that they may like, but those designs were also built that way BECAUSE the materials went together easiest that way.

As Bob Cleek hinted at, beauty and tradition become very relative terms that are defined by time and changes over time. 'Traditional' really means less than we realize and should not be defined mainly in terms of an aesthetic of curves since this definition by itself could mean any aesthetic of curves depending on when we live in relation to the boat being described.

---------------

That's as pretty decent a stab at it as this philosophy professor can manage tonight. I hope it helps.

[Lance F. Gunderson]

I just returned this afternoon from a month cruising the coast of Maine in my Black Skimmer. Such an endeavor is certainly not for everyone. It's a lot like living in a backpacking tent while listening to an endless drum solo when you're trying or hoping to sleep. Bolger's sharpies pound like hell. This is especially problematic at anchor. To sleep you'll need to hunt up some quiet creek or put her aground, otherwise you'll suffer. In a seaway the pounding is unnerving but doesn't seem to cause structural problems. It's the crew that comes unhinged. This year I had really rough seas between Kittery and Boothbay in both directions, and along towards the end of it I was beat and wondering why anyone would want to do this. A bigger round bottom boat would certainly have been much more comfortable, but it couldn't have gotten into the secluded little coves and shoal shortcuts the Black Skimmer allowed. It's all a trade off. There is no perfect boat for everything. Bolger worshiped simplicity, low initial cost, and reasonable performance for the intended service. His many sharpie designes excell in that respect, but they are not outstanding performers under sail; they are slow and not close winded. But they can be powered by small outboards, sculled or rowed, and will get you to all the places the big boys go eventually. I think they are safe if competantly handled. My Skimmer has positive floatation and supposedly enough ballast to be self righting in a hard chance. Unless a lot of water gets below she should recover from just about anything. I like and enjoy the low freeboard, but it is interesting that the later Bolger sharpies had higher and higher freeboard, and he once said of freeboard: "You can't have too much." But it may provide a false sense of security, just as life jackets do. I think of the Bolger sharpies as extensions or variations on L.F. Herreshoff's Meadowlark, and the cruising philosophy associated with that design. If that appeals, so may the Bolger boats. But I suggest you try one before building. They can be outstanding values on todays used boat market. Don't own a boat you can't afford to loose.

[Andy B]

I have a traditional gaff cutter but appreciate Bolger's contribution to boat design. Nonetheless I offer this cautionary tale. A friend built a 26' Jesse Cooper. As designed, it had a low ballast ratio of 960 lbs. on a displacement of about 6000 lbs. Not long after launching my friend was tacking to windward up a channel when caught aback by a gust: the boat capsized. It remained on its side, until a motor cruiser pulled it upright via a line attached to the boom gallows.

I joined my rather traumatized friend shortly after and we loaded sand bags into cupboards either side, bringing the ballast up to about a ton. The sand was later replaced by lead under the sole. I did some coastal legs on the boat along the NSW coast (Australian east coast), but was always wary of being caught out in rough conditions.

Stability apart, the boat felt like it should have sailed faster than it did, but I couldn't work out why it didn't. It had leeboards (fairly crudely shaped) rather than the designed daggerboard, but I don't think this alone would account for the lack of performance.

I also sailed on an AS29 in protected waters; the boat felt very dinghy-like compared to my heavier displacement vessel, heeling readily to wind gusts, but was also very responsive. I envied the boat's ability to dry out upright on the sandbanks. The flat bottom proved to have its drawback when it would slap in a chop when at anchor.

[StevenBauer]

After watching it sail last week in various conditions and following it around the coast this is my favorite Bolger boat:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/2009%20cruise/IMG_3517.jpg

[skuthorp]

I think that Bolger was a compelled boat designer like writers are compelled to write. The enjoyment was in the design phase, pushing the limits and questioning old 'truths'. Not that he wasn't interested whether the thing would float, but the creative process was paramount. I agree that it may take a few years to fully appreciate his contributions to boat design.
And Steven, that and Birdwatcher are amongst my favourites too. I doubt whether I've even seen all of his designs.

[Stu Fyfe]

OK, I'll jump in here. I have Bolger's Triple Keel Sloop, design #328. She is a 22ft gaff sloop with a strip plank hull and draws 18". This boat was written up in Different Boats, Small Boat Journal and Design Quarterly. As far as I know, I have the only one ever built. "Triple Keel" is probably misleading. She has a center keel that runs from stem to stern and extends down about 10" from the bottom of the hull. There are two bilge keels that extend down the same distance as the center keel. This allows her to ground-out upright. There are footings on all three keels and the bottom of the rudder. These stainless steel footings prevent her from sinking into the mud and also provide some extra stability. You'll see the same type of rudder on his Bobcat and Chebacco. I've sailed Redwing primarily around Cape Cod and the Islands. We've made four trips to Mystic, CT and I've ventured as far north as Southwest Harbor, ME for the 1995 Woodenboat Show. Although not designed for offshore work, I've had her out in a variety of conditions. Hull speed is about 6 knots, but I've had her well over 7 knots on certain points of sail. The most extreme conditions were 8 ft seas on a run from Gloucester to Dennis, about 70 miles. The longest stretch at a time was from Portland, ME to Criehaven Island. I do most of my trips solo. I once spent three weeks on board cruising the coast of ME. Comfortable berths, but the only headroom is standing in the companion way. Her wineglass transom can handle a trailing seas quite nicely. Beating into a chop can make for a long day as I've experienced in Buzzards Bay and Woods Hole. Like most great designers, when Phil found a section of a boat that he liked, he would add it to other designs. My raised deck cabin hatch is identical to Chebacco. Her transom is similar to St. Valarie. You can see many similar Bolger touches throughout his designs. Since I've had this boat for over twenty years, I know her very well. Make no mistake, she's a little different under sail. She hold course much better when she's heeled over and the bilge keel digs in. There are so many little design items that I appreciate. For example, the port side mounted engine will cause her to steer to starboard under power. This allows you to stand in the cockpit when the sail is down and steer the tiller with your right knee as it pushes against you. The offset boom crutch gives you just the right amount of standing room and the boom to rest on and brace yourself. On long solo trips you can assume a number of positions that keep you from getting uncomfortable. The high stern provides "various relaxed attitudes that the helmsman could assume at the stern tiller" as Phil said in one of his write ups. I could go on and on, but maybe I'm straying from the original topic. Yes, she sails well in all but the worst conditions. I reef often. Not because I have to, but because I don't want to put any unnecessary stress on her rig. She is after all 27 years young.

[BillyBudd]

After watching it sail last week in various conditions and following it around the coast this is my favorite Bolger boat:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/2009%20cruise/IMG_3517.jpg

Very nice photo of Howard's Chebacco. I'm stirring up ideas and wondering if Howard destroyed or saved his form? I wondering about something else about Howard, fine craftsman that he is -- did everyone see his Chebacco at the WBShow '08 or '07 where it earned an award for excellence? Is Howard interested in building another Chebacco? I'm thinking of Red Doc here....

This idea is offered because, after hosting Red Doc on my sheet ply Chebacco on a wet becalmed Sunday morning, I'm wondering if the Chebacco might just be the right boat for his desires/needs, and wouldn't it just be perfect if there was a Chebacco he could acquire without building. I'll have to drop a note to Howard to see if I can be 0% Matchmaker here!

BTW...great posts on another thread on Maine cruising which included the apparently uncatchable Chebacco.

[rbgarr]

... and should not be defined mainly in terms of an aesthetic of curves since this definition by itself could mean any aesthetic of curves depending on when we live in relation to the boat being described.

If you are responding to my post above yours, I was thinking of how most people think of traditional boats (any boats) and not how people 'should' think of things.

[James McMullen]

I really, really wanted to build a Chebacco myself at one point. Bought the plans and everything. Perhaps I shall pass the plans along to someone who still wants to build one. Anyone?

[Red_Doc]

Great help there - thank you for all those real experienced reports.

Re: blackadder, agreed, we're on the same page, no offence intended.

Re: Dick's post on Chebaco building, I'm certainly interested in Bolger designs and won't be able to build anything bigger than wee stuff while the children are young. I'd rather get out on the water with them asap while we're all still young instead.

Re: not sailing well, i've hear Dick's experience and others on the Bolger discussion group hinting that perhaps the boats are undercanvassed - perhaps Phil Bolger did that for safety with their lack of self-righting moment?

Re: slap and pound, I'd have thought the heavy rocker and heeling would allow his designs to cut through the water smoothly, but some of the video of a micro on Lake Erie and Stu's post above indicate otherwise - why?

Re: slapping at anchor and sailing, seems it's not all prejudice and sharpie stereotype - i really will have to try out a design of his before i know what i'm getting into. I love the feel of a well ballasted wineglass boat but can see how illogical it is near shore when it can't function as a fun gunkholer close to the pretty scenery on the shoreline.

Re: dinghy-like even for an AS-29, i guess i'll have to get used to some of that - nothing *trailerable* is going to feel like a full size boat, and while full size is comfortable maybe i'd rather the exhilaration and freedom of a quick responsive shallow draft design instead.

Re: handling in rough water, it sounds like shallow draft boats can be exhausting but they can handle swells and chop in careful hands without making most people seasick, bruised, and miserably unhappy? ... however, they remain dinghy like and the risk of capsize remains real no matter what Phil wrote?

Re: Australian North Island sharpie designers' claims - how do their reports of fantastic handling in rough open ocean jive with our experiences here? Can they be believed?

Re: Phil's rightable designs, there is a clear limit to how much freeboard is too much and other forum posts in other places indicate that many needed awkward redesign to improve safety... but is safety improved enough?

Re: triple keel boats and Dovekies/Shearwaters and his repeated design features, there is a clear beauty and functional brilliance to those very similar hull shapes derived from the Thames barges. The need for lower aspect tabernacled rigs is a clear winner and very popular. The need to add more sail and improve sail balance is clear - but can it be done safely for ghosting in light winds on his designs if the wind quickly pipes up?

Re: aesthetics and beauty, that's a tough one maybe we should let lie.

I hope we can wring a few more experienced observations out of this thread before Phil Bolger's memorial in Gloucester the weekend of September 18th...

Wish i could be there - i'm going to send the wife and kids to pick their favorite designs.

[StevenBauer]

BTW...great posts on another thread on Maine cruising which included the apparently uncatchable Chebacco.

The other thread is only up to day four. In the stronger winds and bigger chop the keel boat finally could catch the centerboarder. :D


Steven

[Woxbox]

Re: dinghy-like even for an AS-29, i guess i'll have to get used to some of that - nothing *trailerable* is going to feel like a full size boat, and while full size is comfortable maybe i'd rather the exhilaration and freedom of a quick responsive shallow draft design instead.This isn't an entirely accurate generalization. There is a class of trimarans that run around 25' that are designed to be trailerable. They are remarkably stable, seaworthy, and very fast and light on their feet. They feel much bigger and heavier underfoot than you would expect, given that they are lightly built and unballasted. With board and rudder up, they draw between a foot and 18 inches of water.

The negatives are they are much more work to build, since there are three hulls involved, tend to have more expensive rigs, and once built are more involved to set up and get in the water than similar sized monohulls. But there are big rewards.

I used to have a 25' Searunner. With help I could get it in the water in an hour. By myself, it would take 90 minutes. But once underway, it was a very able and very secure boat.

I've moved on to a bigger boat since then -- but my next cruising boat will be a return to a smaller, trailerable tri.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Someone above mentioned my name, so I'll chime in, though Red-Doc and I have exchanged private e-mails through the WB Forum, too.

As to how well Bolger designs sail (I owned a Dovekie 12 years and have had my Shearwater for 14 years) might be illustrated by the following.

When I first sailed my Shearwater in company with another Shearwater from New Jersey the other boat sailed circles around my boat. Why (other than superior sailing by her Skipper)? Well, the other boat featured a pair of assymetric foil leeboards, while mine were flat, so the other boat was a "witch" to windward. The other boat had 400-lbs of additional ballast beyond the 600-lbs installed by the builder, so she stood up better to a breeze. The NJ boat had a custom mainsail with a roached leech instead of a hollow leech as Bolger had drawn it.


The other boat had been built without a bow centerboard, so her hull would slip through the water with less drag.

This past summer my wife and I had the pleasure to again sail in company with the Shearwater from New Jersey. We outsailed her (just a bit) over a straight 9-mile course, close hauled, in 15-18 knots of wind on Buzzards Bay.

How was this possible? Well, over the last few years I've constructed a pair of laminar flow, assymetric foil leeboards. I've added 400-lbs of ballast. I've purchased a new mainsail with a roached instead of hollow leech, adding 10% tp my boat's sail area. And I removed my boat's bow centerboard case.

On the occasion earlier this summer when I bested my longtime friendly rival, my mizzen was furled, but My boat's yawl rig utilized her working jib. The other Shearwater is a cat-yawl and her mainsail had one freef tucked, though she did use her mizzen. Both boats towed dinghies.

So, our sail areas were about equal, and nearly everything else was equal, and it made all the difference.

It would seem that maybe Phil Bolger and Peter Duff might have paid more attention to details. The two boats illustrated here sail much better than the other Shearwaters can.

Moby Nick

[BillyBudd]

I'm interested in seeing Red Doc and family on the water, sooner rather than later. Since they live nearby, the lake where I sail may be of some interest to them as, no doubt, trailering to the coasts of New England. On the lake, they can moor for the summer and get in several sails a week after work or on weekends. They can pull out and go down the highway for a few days too.

A Bolger boat, such as my Chebacco, does the trick on the lake (20' max. allowed for mooring). A fiberglass (yup) Potter 19 would also work and its hull/sail plan may tend to please more than Bolger's boats. Both travel. One takes a builder and time and dribbles of available cash, the other a big chunk of change written on a check.

Bolger, as I have understood him, developed a great number of designs for the home builder, not the racing sort. That isn't to say that Bolger boats cannot be tweaked up a few knots or so. I'm presently guilty of experimenting with a jib on my Chebacco and so far have achieved +1 kt. in hull speed. We love the boat more and more as she approaches design hull speed (~6 kts.). But we're not racers, more recreational sailors--the sort that I think Bolger designed for.

I also think that Bolger's boat sailors, by and large, are, like me, fair weather sailors. While we might need a boat to get us through Stu Fyfe's experience of 8' waves, we tend to stay home if the weather forecast isn't rosy. The Chebacco is, I think, classified as a "protected water" or "semi open bay" sort of boat...nothing more as far as I know. Slight pounding is unavoidable now and then. To my ears, its a nice sound, a reminder that we're making way.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.