Stephenson weekender vs Hartly ts16

[Paul Murray]

Hi all,
Thought I'd put this one up to see anyone had opinions.
I've had a mirror now for about three years (actually two) & thinking about going for someting I can take most or all the family on ocasionally & can still keep in my garage. Looked at a half finished weekender the other week & been cruising Ebay etc for Hartley TS16s
Any thoughts on the merits of one over the other. I mostly (two or three times a year) sail on LBG in the ACT. If I can get the missus mor comfortable we might get out more often.
cheers.
Paul

[Thorne]

Try a search of this Forum, as the Weekender has been discussed ad naseum. Also I recommend going to the USER CP link in the upper left of this page and updating your location -- which makes a difference as to what is recommended.

Personally I vastly prefer centerboards, daggerboards or leeboards to the small fixed keel that the Weekender uses -- but haven't sailed either the Hartley or Weekend so can't speak to the comparison.

I find the internal Wooden Boat Forum search engine to be pretty limited, as it doesn't seem to allow Boolean searches.

I find that the Google Advanced Search ( http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en ) works much better. Just copy and paste the Forum's URL ( http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/ ) into the last field named "Search within a site or domain:", and then put in search strings like "tow dinghy bridle" or whatever.

[JimD]

Welcome to the forum, Paul. I personally would have nothing to do with a Weekender and consider the Hartley boats to be vastly superior.

[James McMullen]

I wouldn't take a Weekender if it were free. . . .I know this to be true since I actually did pass on an abandoned one that was available. The Hartley is in an utterly different league.

[Tom Hoffman]

Paul, I was going to build the Vacationer and decided against it in favor of a real sail boat approximately the same size and has the ability to be trailered and stored in a garage. What persuaded me was the keel configuration on the Vacationer and the Weekender is the same. Take a close look. They are not even close to a normal sailboat keel. On the BYYB forum Ryerson Clark has recently modified his keel on his Weekender and is haveing very good results. The suggested modification came from a Sail boat designer who is on the forum alot and consequently in his posting, I started to question him about what I could do to modify the Vacationer to make it more of a real sailboat and not a beginners exercise. He showed me a design of his that I liked very much that is almost identical in measurements to the weekender but has a real sailboat keel and is capable of Ocean Sailing as well as inshore lake sailing.

Here is a pic of the boat that I am awaiting plans on.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/RYD-1411C.jpg

As you see the keel is very conventional, mine will have a slightly shallower keel (shoal keel) approx. 28" from water line to bottom. Also I am building using stripper method not plywood/chines and screws.

Regards,

Tom...

[David G]

Mr. Hoffman,

The way I understand it - that's not really the boat you're building, but a somewhat similar, previous design? Do you have drawings of your actual design to post?

Oh, and regarding the Weekender - it's a fun little small-water boat for someone who's a beginning sailor, and gets a kick out of the "salty" look of what is - essentially - a decorated dinghy. And they're a very quick build. I have a mate who has one, and he still uses his a fair bit, but it seems that most folks grow out of them pretty quickly.

I've never seen any of the Hartley Trailer Sailers, but from the reputation and from looking at the drawings, they seem to be a much more serious boat.

[Tom Hoffman]

Yes, That is the boat I am building. The only difference is that it will be shoal draft and it will be strip planked instead of taped seam and chines. I am not disparaging the Weekender, however I feel that I am somewhat past the beginning boat stage and want a real boat to sail, not a boat designed for a novice. I know that there have been 1000's of Weekenders and Vacationeers built.

When I started to question the design of the boat and possible modifications that some had felt the need to make on the Vacationeer, I just decided to not even bother and to get a real set of plans and build a boat the way I am use to and that is bead and cove strips and epoxy and fiberglass. Here are the line drawings for the actual boat.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/RYD-14_11ShoalRd.jpg

[Marconi]

Thnaks for replies
(changed user names to conform with other forums I use sorry for any confusion)
As I'm not planning on building then I think the mane advantage of the weekender is mute. (unless you count the "saltyness") any other suggestions for familly boats to 16'ish would be appreciated kids are 4 & 8 ATM & I'm looking at something I can handel easily by myself & can take the whole mob if required.
All the best Paul AKA Marconi

PS
Anyone got good advise on sail cleaning I posted this:-
"Finally gotten around to cleaning(trying to) the old sail No.s off the latest Mirror. (yet to be named only had it 12months carn't rush these things) Anyway back to topic. Someone in the dim past has used Duck tape & possibly liquid nails & or contact glue for the numbers (45504 to give you an idea of vintage) I have been using soap & my fingernail & warm water.
Will eucalyptus oil damage the cloth? any other good suggestions?
It's winter here in the Australian Capital Territory. So I haven't been out since christmas. But It's a great day outside today pitty its mainenance time, painted the mast yesterday with kill rust epoxy paint. I bought some 6mm sash cord for new halyards & a couple of new stainless fastening dodads for same (forget the correct name)cleets maybee)
"
Any suggestions?
Cheers Paul AKA Marconi in Oz.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Well, blow me down -- another Canberran. Welcome Paul.

There's really not much comparison between a Stevenson and a Hartley. Stevensons have a (to me) surprisingly large following. I suppose they look 'salty' enough with their faux clipper bows and all, and I know a couple of Forumites have them and love them. But they're essentially skiffs-with-lids, and they rely entirely on their initial stability to stop them capsizing -- if you tip them too far you're upside-down with no way that I know of righting them. I guess they're okay in sheltered waters but I wouldn't want to take one anywhere else.

Hartleys though are proper sailing dinghies (and bigger,) with a different design philosophy. I'm not saying you'd want to take a TS14 from Melbourne to Launceston necessarily, but if you tried you'd have a reasonable chance of getting there. In a Vacationer or a Weekender there's a very good chance you wouldn't even get through the Rip, never mind across Bass Strait.

My advice would be to stick with the Hartley (especially if you have kids on board.)

By the way, I knew an adult couple who cruised in a TS14 -- there was just room in the cabin for a berth down each side, and cooking (and just about everything else) was done in the cockpit under an awning.

Mike

[James McMullen]

I am not disparaging the Weekender. . . .

I am. It's not a boat suitable for cold waters, open waters or rough waters. Anyone with ambitions beyond small, warm lake sailing in August should look further. There's plenty of designs that look "salty" that actually are "salty".

[Larks]

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum. I can't comment about the weekender but I can thoroughly recommend the Hartley. Easy enough to fix up if you find an old one worth the effort and they have a good following of people with plenty of ready advice so keep looking, maybe keep an eye on a couple of the Hartley sites:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/bpwales/

http://dsn.au.com/Gallery/GallerySearch.php
They are a very endearing boat and particularly fun for kids and camping. I shouldn't say that they aren't capsizeable because anything is ultimately, but you'd have a hard time doing so in weather that you'd be sailing in for pleasure. I have one and love it and don't expect to ever give it up. Also, on Mike's comment re sailing to Launceston, I have bumped into people in very far flung places cruising on TS16's twice, one couple up in Indonesia somewhere (who had supposedly sailed it from Darwin??) and a French guy over in Turkey who had been living on his for over a year when I saw him in Kos.

[JimJ]

Paul
Larks gave the old link to the HMTSAQ
It is now this (http://www.users.bigpond.com/aeroservice/HartleyAssocHomePage.html)

Apparently a TS16 made it across the Atlantic - could be an urban myth but I have seen photos of it but cannot find any reference to the crossing

Here is a link to Talking Points (http://www.ts16sa.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ts16sa/downloads/June%202006.pdf)TS16 Association of SA which contains an article on building a TS16.

Jim

[seanz]

The Atlantic? I'd not heard that one.

The story I heard was a TS16 made it across the Tasman.......but I can't find anything that documents that feat of daring. I found places that mentioned the story but nothing that contained the name of the boat or the crew.


Marconi; go the Hartley. I did.
:)

[DavidR]

Hi Paul,

I hope that I can be of some help to you, I have built and currently own a weekender that I have removed the cabin because the cotpit was to small and made it an open boat. My family (3 all together) sail the boat on the Hudson River in NY. The boat is defiantly for sheltered waters, for beginner builders and sailors. The boat is under rigged to be more stable, so in low winds (6 miles in hour and under), we needs to use the motor and in winds above 20 miles an hour we have to drop sail and use motor again.

While sailing, we do get many compliments on the style of the boat.

I am currently working on building a Wittholz 15' Catboat. Construction is a little more difficult and materials are more costly than the weekender, so far, but from what I have seen and read about on this forum, the 15' Catboat will be more stable and easier to sail with family and alone.

DavidR

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
And I should have added, Paul, that if your home waters will be the lakes here, a Stevenson should be fine. But don't trail her down to the Bay. (And do make sure you all wear your life-jackets.)

Mike

[Marconi]

Thanks Again for all your valuable help I think all things concidered, as I'm not planning a build at this stage & I do plan to go to the salt water ocasionally that I'll start looking for a Hartley. Meantime I'll continue getting the Mirror ready for another summer on the Lake. If the weather stays as good as it's been might be out there much earlier than expected.
Cheers to all.

[Larks]

Here's one... not sure how far from you though:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Hartley-TS16-trailer-sailer_W0QQitemZ170370216087QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2 0090809?IMSfp=TL090809138001r16535

also having another look at it there's something a bit odd about the cabin, looks like it's half missing....though not terribly clear pic's

[Marconi]

Thanks for that one Larks. I did see it though I'm looking for one with Cabin intact. But it's around the right price.

[Larks]

Yes, a bit odd, reading it he's cut it down for fishing, also I'm not sure what the deal is with the bitumen paint? Maybe she's rotten inside from rain water? Though how close would it be to you? If the hull is half OK, there wouldn't be much work in rebuilding the cabin and replacing a bit of rotten ply if you could knock them down to the right price - ie maybe $1500.00??. The trailer looks reasonably decent.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Drysdale would be about a nine-hour drive from here, Greg. Certainly doable.

My reading on the bitumen paint, since it's inside and out, is that it would have been applied as a preventative measure. But clearly Paul would want to inspect it.

And that Seagull looks like a long-shaft, electronic, pre-recoil-start (ie about early-mid 80s vintage,) and if so it alone could be worth as much as $500. Add in another $500 for the trailer, and the boat is starting to look like a pretty good deal....

Mike

[seanz]

Yes, a bit odd, reading it he's cut it down for fishing, also I'm not sure what the deal is with the bitumen paint? Maybe she's rotten inside from rain water? Though how close would it be to you? If the hull is half OK, there wouldn't be much work in rebuilding the cabin and replacing a bit of rotten ply if you could knock them down to the right price - ie maybe $1500.00??. The trailer looks reasonably decent.

In Drysdale?
;)
It hasn't rained for years...............:( Well, maybe a bit......:)

Don't worry about the cabin....they sail like a dingy anyway. Don't rebuild it, remove what's left.
:)

Two things......the boat looks like it is stored inside which is good and 23' is the length of the mast on a TS18 (the TS16 mast is 21' according to my Hartley book) so you might want to ask if they've ever had it rigged or sailed in it......or it might just be a typo.

[bucheron]

thinking about going for someting I can take most or all the family on ocasionally & can still keep in my garage. Looked at a half finished weekender the other week & been cruising Ebay etc for Hartley TS16s
..... I mostly (two or three times a year) sail on LBG in the ACT. If I can get the missus mor comfortable we might get out more often.
cheers.
Paul

Are there many Weekenders or Vacationers in Australia?


Try a search of this Forum, as the Weekender has been discussed ad naseum.
Personally I vastly prefer centerboards, daggerboards or leeboards to the small fixed keel that the Weekender uses -- but haven't sailed either the Hartley or Weekend so can't speak to the comparison.
I find that the Google Advanced Search ( http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en ) works much better. Just copy and paste the Forum's URL ( http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/ ) into the last field named "Search within a site or domain:", and then put in search strings like "tow dinghy bridle" or whatever.
Thorne, thanks for this succinct suggestion, I've pasted it into my how-to toolbox. I used it to read some of the ad nausem, and I did not find anything by James M below to support his two dismissive posts.


Welcome to the forum, Paul. I personally would have nothing to do with a Weekender and consider the Hartley boats to be vastly superior.

I wouldn't take a Weekender if it were free. . . .I know this to be true since I actually did pass on an abandoned one that was available. The Hartley is in an utterly different league.
Why? In what way are they superior? Paul is describing himself as an occasional sailor whose family wants fun and comfort on the water, in a sheltered environment. With a fixed shallow keel he will not have to worry about what his centreboard or rudder are doing. Kids' fingers in a slot with a steel centreplate are not a pretty sight. The Derek Ellard Scruffie is a design which has proved successful for its purpose and manages well without a centreplate or swinging rudder.



They are not even close to a normal sailboat keel.....He showed me a design of his that I liked very much that is almost identical in measurements to the weekender but has a real sailboat keel and is capable of Ocean Sailing as well as inshore lake sailing.
Here is a pic of the boat that I am awaiting plans on.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k276/slvrgost/RYD-1411C.jpg
As you see the keel is very conventional, mine will have a slightly shallower keel (shoal keel) approx. 28" from water line to bottom.

Tom...

I am not seeing or finding this picture. What you are describing is a new design. Ocean to lake sailing is quite a range.


Hi Paul,
I hope that I can be of some help to you, I have built and currently own a weekender that I have removed the cabin because the cotpit was to small and made it an open boat. The boat is under rigged to be more stable, so in low winds and in winds above 20 miles an hour we have to drop sail and use motor again.
While sailing, we do get many compliments on the style of the boat.

Very sensible IMHO. Trailer sailer cabins sacrifice the middle half of the boat. For family messabout sailing in good weather, the shelter is not needed. People see you having fun and want to do the same.


Here's one... not sure how far from you though:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Hartley-TS16-trailer-sailer_W0QQitemZ170370216087QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2 0090809?IMSfp=TL090809138001r16535





Don't worry about the cabin....they sail like a dingy anyway. Don't rebuild it, remove what's left.


I totally agree. I would love to try a Hartley 16 which was an open boat. I suspect the remaining cabin has to be there so the mast support post stays in position. The only problem is that the boat will no longer be a standard TS16, and will not be able to compete in races. Oh horrors, how terrible to miss out on that. Sarcasm was intended there.

JimJ and I discussed this thread on the weekend with a friend who I have heard use the phrase "claw off a lee shore". He has the ambition to sail in situations where that may become necessary, and is scornful of the Scruffie. He owns a TS16.

Paul M does not sound as if he wants that, at this stage anyway.

I just don't see why Spartan and racing attitudes should completely rule the boating scene.

[seanz]

I just don't see why Spartan and racing attitudes should completely rule the boating scene


They don't.....they just get the most publicity.
It is worth mentioning that the original intent of the TS16 was a cheap boat that could class race on the weekend and campcruise on the school holidays.
I've seen a cartoon on the Hartley site of a TS16 without a cabin (not sure if it's still there, I nic...saved it but it's on the other [troubled and decrepit]computer) and it looks like fun. A tabernacle would be used to replace the cabintop mast support. Sure, you won't get in the TS class but your local club would probably let you messabout with the dingy classes.

[goodbasil]

Small Boat Journal #35, March/84 did an article on the HARTLEY T.S. 16.
(4.5 pages) If it's of any interest to you. Can't find the article online though.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

...and I did not find anything by James M below to support his two dismissive posts.

James is not well noted for his diplomacy of speech. But he's dismissive of Stevenson's boats for the reason I gave in Post #9 -- they're flat-bottomed, they can capsize without much warning, and once capsized they're unrightable in the water.


Why? In what way are they superior? Paul is describing himself as an occasional sailor whose family wants fun and comfort on the water, in a sheltered environment.

Yes, but Paul also said that, whatever boat his finally turns out to be, he wanted to use her occasionally in salt-water. Here, that means the Pacific or an inlet opening thereto, in prevailing winds that are offshore -- not safe waters for any Stevenson, in my view.


The Derek Ellard Scruffie is a design which has proved successful for its purpose ....

My opinions about the Scruffie are on record elsewhere here. I don't particularly like it, or its later brethren. But I think it's more seaworthy than a Stevenson.


Very sensible IMHO. Trailer sailer cabins sacrifice the middle half of the boat. For family messabout sailing in good weather, the shelter is not needed.

I totally agree (unless you want a small cruiser-for-two. See Post #9 again.)


JimJ and I discussed this thread on the weekend with a friend who I have heard use the phrase "claw off a lee shore". He has the ambition to sail in situations where that may become necessary, and is scornful of the Scruffie. He owns a TS16.

In order of preference, in this situation I myself would prefer a Hartley to a Scruffie. A Stevenson and a life-jacket would be about level-pegging in last place....

Mike

[James McMullen]

Sorry that I'm not very diplomatic, but I guess I just calls 'em as I sees 'em. In my home water temperatures, a capsizeable boat that can't be easily self-righted that is marketed to beginners is a potential death trap. I'll repeat my earlier point: There's plenty of boats that look "salty" that actually are sound designs for saltwater.

And as far as
"With a fixed shallow keel he will not have to worry about what his centreboard or rudder are doing." goes, he also won't have to worry much about sailing upwind particularly well, either. Of course if your goal is making leeway rather than gaining ground upwind, you'll much prefer that shoal keel to that inconvenient centerboard.

[Marconi]

I feel like a real TRAITOR, I was poking around looking for a HartleyTS16 , then up poped a Dennis TS500 not quite 1KM from me on a regestered trailer 4berths 27mg radio, depth sounder, furling jib, boom tent. Sooo close. But fiberglass built aprox 1977
Couldn't pass on it.
At least I can park it in the back yard & ignor it all winter.
I'm sorry guys the dark side has called (still have my Mirror & whats left of my ply skate) the wife says the Mirror has to go though.
Best regards Paul.

[Thorne]

Sound the drums! Call the woodworkers to order! Rip the globs of glue and sawdust off his work shirt, and break his hand plane in half!

All together now: "Shame! Shame!":D

(have fun actually boating rather than working on it, OK?)

[Simon P]

I bought a cheap 40 year old Hartley TS 16 off ebay for the cost of the trailer in Feb this year, never having heard of them before. In 35 years of sailing (dinghies mostly) I've never sailed such a capable boat as this.
Just last weekend at Portsea we got caught by a "unforecast" 30 knot wind (gusting to 35, 1-2 metre swell). She coped fine just on a reefed main. Boy is she fast!
Don't deride the advantage of a cabin. As soon as my wife sees white-caps, she hunkers down on the camp bed and reads a book. I only ask that she changes sides when we tack. Even if I get covered in spray she stays warm, dry and happy (trusting soul that she is) For me, the big test for a boat is: will my family come out in it again? If not, its a failure.
The cabin makes the Hartley a great caravan in a pinch. At the recent Victorian Blokarting Championships (little land yachts) my son and I took the Hartley along as well. We figured: tide out + lots of wind = blokarting on the sand, tide in + not so much wind = sailing. We had free quiet accomodation at the local park, while the others paid $30 each at the caravan park to be kept awake til 3am by drunken louts.
In many areas pitching a tent will raise the ire of officials and local residents, and even parking with a caravan will cause suspicion. With a boat you slip beneath the radar. Because of it's alternative purpose, no one thinks you'd be in there on dry land.
IMHO a Hartley yacht with a decent sized cabin would be hard to beat.