Refinishing...

[Kpyto]

I'm sort of new around here... been reading and lurking for a while. It's time for me to post though as I'm closing in on a critical part of my project.

I own a 1967 42' Chris Craft Commander aft cabin. It's the first year that this particular model was produced, and the only year that Chris Craft put an all mahogany interior in it. After '67, they utilized vast amouts of wood laminate, with wood trim. Anyway... I purchased the boat two years ago and about 90% of the wood had either been painted white or wallpapered, and the boat had been neglected on the hard for 6 years prior to my purchase of her. Since late 2006, I've been striping, scraping, & sanding. I'm now a couple of weeks away from finally beginning to finish the mahogany.

I have a couple of questions. I know that there is a bunch of information on these subjects, but I wanted to see about getting some additional information, or different points of view to help complete my picture. Keep in mind that all of the wood being finished is on the interior, but the boat is pretty well lit inside from the larger windows in the salon/galley area, and in the aft cabin. That being said... here are my questions:

1. CPES, or not to CPES? If there are areas where I want to protect from potential leaks (keeping the varnish from lifting)... is this going to help? Has anyone had CPES in place for a long period of time, and if so... your thoughts? (I'm concerned with possible UV issues).
2. When applying over an oil-based stain (Velvet Oil), will areas that have CPES applied have a different color to them after varnish has been applied?
3. I am planning on using Epifanes varnish - finishing it with a coat or two of Rubbed effect. Does anyone have comments regarding the use of Wood Finish Gloss vs. Clear Finish Gloss?
4. I have sanded down my wood with 150 grit, and the entire interior of the boat has been sanded to bare wood. The next step is final cleaning of the boat, and wood... what are some suggestions for cleaning - water only? Mineral spirits?
5. Does anyone have experience with Epifanes brushes? Are there better alternatives?

As you can tell I'm getting close to ordering product... and the point of no return. I'm sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I do it the right way the first time, as it's all going to be "new." Thanks!

[PaulC]

I am not sure I would use CPES for this interior application. Since you have gone through all of the work to get down to fresh wood, I would want to use varnish for the fine final finish. If you have any leaks, it might be better to see them than have water travel behind the wood to somewhere else.

[WoodenBNut]

your questions:
1. CPES, or not to CPES? If there are areas where I want to protect from potential leaks (keeping the varnish from lifting)... is this going to help? Has anyone had CPES in place for a long period of time, and if so... your thoughts? (I'm concerned with possible UV issues).
2. When applying over an oil-based stain (Velvet Oil), will areas that have CPES applied have a different color to them after varnish has been applied?
3. I am planning on using Epifanes varnish - finishing it with a coat or two of Rubbed effect. Does anyone have comments regarding the use of Wood Finish Gloss vs. Clear Finish Gloss?
4. I have sanded down my wood with 150 grit, and the entire interior of the boat has been sanded to bare wood. The next step is final cleaning of the boat, and wood... what are some suggestions for cleaning - water only? Mineral spirits?
5. Does anyone have experience with Epifanes brushes? Are there better alternatives?

some thoughts:

1. CPES - it is good stuff. I have used it as a sealer. * you have to use the filler stain before you apply the CPES. I have also used Waterlox sealer and Petiitt has a good sealer. You won't get any UV protection from sealers. The varish you use will give you the UV protection depending on the amount of UV inhibitors in the varnish. I like Pettit Flagship varnish for exterior wood surfaces as it has a lot of uV inhibitors. But inside cabin wood work doesn't require a varnish with a lot of UV protection. Rubbed effect is fine for inside work.

2. Yes, I would think you would end up with a different color if a stain is present. Try removing as much of the previous stain as possible and restain with an appropriate filler stain. I usually have to play around with mixing the filler stains to get the stain color that I want.

3. Epifanes Wood finish gloss is nice. I find it a little thick out of the can - so I thin it maybe 5 to 10%. I seems to flow and level better when thinned. But, put on very thin coats or you will get runs/sags, etc.

4. Cleaning after sanding: I have used alcohol and seems to work pretty good.

5. I have used Jamestown Distributors badger hair brushes (the medium, thinner haired brushes) and they seem to give a nice finish. But, I would suppose Epifanes brushes would be good too. I just like the badger air brushes that have don't have the thick bristles as the thick ones tend to load up too much varnish. But then, that's just my opinion and particular technique that works for me.

[Kpyto]

Paul & WoodenBNut... thank you both for your thoughts.

The more I read, the more I'm leaning towards not using CPES... I'm sort of torn.

I've yet to stain the wood - it's bare (I'll post some fairly recent pictures here in a bit). My dad utilized the same Velvet Oil (warm cherry, can't remember the exact number), when he refinished the entire inside of his 1966 38' Commander Express (didn't fall far from the tree did I?)... I love the way his turned out. It's not a filler stain though... wrong choice?

Thanks for the brush advice. I did see the badger hair brushes and thought about them. I did notice that Jamestown offers several styles of brush... originally I was looking to get my items from Classic Boat Connection - they only listed one type of Epifanes brush. Can someone help me with the difference in the styles of bursh that Epifanes has? I have heard the badget hair brushes are good so it may be a moot point, but still... the more information the better.

Alcohol... not mineral spirits correct? Or does it not matter as long as it's dry (I've read that mineral spirits will fog the finish of Epifanes).

I'll post pictures of what it was before and what it is now...

[Kpyto]

I've never attached here... so here goes.
First, the boat as I found her - after sitting 6 years on the hard, uncovered.

Uh... okay... how do I attach a picture to the post? It says I'm exceeding 19.5k? That can't be right? Any help would be appreciated... No, I don't have any of the pictures on the web at this time, just wanted to attach some pictures that I have (I've resized them). Help?

[Lew Barrett]

First off, congratulations and best of luck with this job. Refinishing the interior of your boat is one of the toughest varnishing jobs you'll ever do, but thank goodness you won't have to do it again unless you keep her 20 years. Even then, I'd say it's a job you'd want to defer to the next guy!

It is not necessary, and possibly not desirable, to seal interior wood with CPES.
The problem with leaks won't be water on the sealed and varnished surfaces, but water that works between the seams and gets behind the wood on the unfinished and faying surfaces. Sealing an interior with CPES is a waste of time and money.

If you use Epifanes, put down your first coats with either the wood finish gloss (if you don't want to sand between coats) or the standard Clear. Cleaning the interior on any varnish project is many times more difficult than exterior cleaning because all the dust, debris and detritus will want to collect in the many nooks, cracks and corners that are presented by an interior. An air compressor, vacuum and diligent work are your most important tools. If you decide to do a solvent wipe before each coat (and some people would reserve that for the most dire of cleanings) I'd use acetone. But a good, clean vacuum with a decent filtration system is really going to be your best friend. Then tack, and don't be too concerned if you get a mote or two. The most important coats to be concerned about are the last one or two and you'll be sanding back for those anyway.

And finally, if it were me, I'd varnish it all in the glossy stuff and reserve the matte finish for the last coat or two. That's SOP on a matte finish. You will be surprised how much UV you do get with the big windows in the saloon of a power boat, by the way. I finished my own boat all gloss; the paint is flattened however. But that's my preference and obviously isn't everyones.

[Kpyto]

Lew... Thanks for the information. I've been reading your comments on the "50 footer" thread that is over 8 pages long. I just relocated to Keokuk, IA... but the boat being discussed on that thread was about 15 minutes from where I lived. Anyway... I appreciate yours (and others') comments on my project.

So, it's sounding more and more like CPES is not the way for me to go (at least for the interior). You're right, it's costly (I was figuring a 2 gallon kit at about $200), and if I'm not going to get a real benefit out of it vs. just using thinned varnish (again, interior stuff), then it's probably best that I skip it.

As you mentioned, I do plan to use the gloss to start with, then utilize the rubbed effect for the last one or two coats. Who knows... maybe I'll like the gloss so much that I just stick with that! Anyway... that's the plan.

Another question: Aside from the comments that WoodenBNut made about the Wood Finish Gloss being a bit on the thicker side... are there any drawbacks to using the Wood Finish, vs. the Clear Gloss? I can see the advantages of not having to sand between coats, but is that really the only difference between the two? Anyone else see a reason why I wouldn't want to use the Wood Finish?

I ask because I am only able to work on the boat on the weekends - and I live 3 hours away from it (thus the length of time that I've spent on it). I want to make the most of my time, and my initial thoughts were to use the Wood Finish. I have yet to see thoughts on this either way, or a discussion about the pros and cons of each...

[Ron Williamson]

So Gary,how do you walk around on your boat without falling on your ass from the slippery silicone haze that must be everywhere?
Golf shoes?
Corks?
Indoor/outdoor carpet?
Have you tried any type of re-finishing on your previously Pledged surfaces?

I HATE Pledge and it's silicone based cousins, including Armor-All.
R

[Ron Williamson]

Good to know.
R

[Kpyto]

Okay... this seemed to get a bit out of wack here for a moment :(. Still looking for some insight on the following:

1. Epifanes Wood Finish Gloss vs. Epifanes Clear Gloss - reasons to not use Wood Finish?
2. Epifanes brushes vs. badget hair - one better than the other, and in the case of Epifanes brushes...which ones (style). I do plan on getting both a 1.5" and 3".
3. How to post a picture? I tried, but while the size of the picture was small (less than 500 x 300 pixels), I was still not able to post. Help?

Thanks again!

[Lew Barrett]

Wood Finish Gloss is a nice product for the interior in respect to reducing sanding courses, but it's not without it's own issues. I have used both types...a lot....and here is my anecdotal view.

On the plus side: No sanding. Big plus! You must eventually sand of course if you want to have a truly flat surface, and you absolutely must sand for the last
coat or the finish will look lumpy and (probably) a bit dirty. Also tape won't pull cleanly after you get three or four coats on it, so you will need to re-tape as well, and probably as frequently as you would for the regular stuff. But No sanding is a big plus!

Downsides: (not in order)
The brush feel when going back over an unsanded surface can be a bit disconcerting. It feels entirely different. And I find that somehow annoying.
You will want to sand any areas locally if you mess up on them or you will trap your mistakes. I take a good look-see between coats when I'm using this stuff and sand out any bad spots before recoating, just as I would with "normal" varnish.
I mention the tape thing above.
The stuff seems to sand differently than "normal varnish" and that's likely because what you end up with is really more like one big chemically bonded coat than a multiplicity of sanded coats. It's not something you will see in the finished product, but something you will observe as you sand back.

All told I think wood finish gloss can be a labor saving approach for an interior product, but you will be required to sand back at least twice (or perhaps three times) in a full eight coat course for best results. I don't use the WFG for any top coats, and would revert to the standard product (or the standard semi-gloss or matte) for that, I think there's no benefit to wfg when you are sanding between coats anyway, as the standard product sands better. So I usually go two or three, then sand. That seems to work best for me. Sanding 50% less on a complex project is no small savings.

You will want to thin any Epifanes product to brushing consistency using their thinner when taken from the can. The stuff is very hard to work un-thinned. I don't have a particular formula, but add thinner sort of by feel. I monitor brush rush feel and flow and adjust the mix as required. Takes a bit of practice or familiarity with the product, but you'll figure it out.
I hope that tells you what my experience has been.

[Lew Barrett]

Brushes...I have some Epi brushes but they are still in the package; haven't used them, yet. They look like they will hold a lot of product and like they are well made, but I don't use oval brushes very often. I've been using "Proform" brushes lately, cheap enough to toss, good enough to want to clean. That's what they say on the label, and it's true for me.

[C. Ross]

Wood Finish vs Clear Gloss....the no-sanding advantage of Wood Finish is nice, but two things.

One, the pro who does work on my boat reports some premature delamination with Wood Finish, and has gone back to all Clear Gloss. His crews put on more Epifanes in a week (maybe a day!) than I might in a year, so I take this advice seriously.

Two, I think the measure of success is how much sanding in total do you need to get to a good finish. When I've used Wood Finish without sanding and then sand for gloss, I think I end up with more hassle on the last couple of gloss coats than I would have if I had just scratched and leveled as I went. So...for me the net effort is about the same...but your three hour commute probably tips things in favor of Wood Finish.

Earlier you mentioned Rubbed Effect. I think it's fine on a fairly "flat" or fine-grained wood like a teak sole, but I'm not sure the glaze-y look is as attractive on a nicely figured wood like mahogany. (Edit: if you like a flatter look there are some great threads on the forum about hand-rubbing gloss varnish. IMO the results look better than Rubbed Effect ... and I really like Epifanes products.)

Pictures: Upload them to a picture-hosting site like flickr. Go to the picture-
hosting site and copy the web site address of the picture you want to post. Click that little mountain icon thingee at the top of where you type your message, and a little box will appear with a place to put the picture address. Paste the web site address of the picture into the little box. Fumble with it once, like all of us do, and then it'll be easy.

Hey, are you going to keep that beautiful boat of yours on the Mississippi?

[Lew Barrett]

I have heard that the pros here have moved away from WFG as well, and that "delamination" you reference is what I called "the one thick coat." But that's less a problem on interiors, which see less sun and, in theory, no rain.

I sand every two coats with the stuff because I don't want to wait so long to level as you suggest, Cris. On exteriors, I've pretty much given up on WFG except for initial build coats, where i sue it the same way Jay Greer does with Jet Speed.

But I do think it could have a useful place in an interior refinish program, and I wouldn't shy away from using it there. Mainly, I think the real differences beyween the two formulations are that WFG has a hotter solvent base, or one that is slower drying. The real disadvantages come, in my view, from the build up of that "one thick coat." Entirely anecdotal, as I said before :D

If you want to get a good film thickness down and go out boating, and if your substrate is already pretty flat, then WFG is one way to do that. I never have enough time to do things exactly as I would like when it comes to finishing, that's for sure.

[C. Ross]

I have heard that the pros here have moved away from WFG as well, and that "delamination" you reference is what I called "the one thick coat." But that's less a problem on interiors, which see less sun and, in theory, no rain.

I sand every two coats with the stuff because I don't want to wait so long to level as you suggest, Cris. On exteriors, I've pretty much given up on WFG except for initial build coats, where i sue it the same way Jay Greer does with Jet Speed.

But I do think it could have a useful place in an interior refinish program, and I wouldn't shy away from using it there. Mainly, I think the real differences beyween the two formulations are that WFG has a hotter solvent base, or one that is slower drying. The real disadvantages come, in my view, from the build up of that "one thick coat." Entirely anecdotal, as I said before :D

If you want to get a good film thickness down and go out boating, and if your substrate is already pretty flat, then WFG is one way to do that. I never have enough time to do things exactly as I would like when it comes to finishing, that's for sure.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how excellent advice is delivered on the WBF.

To second your view, Lew, I once used Epifanes thinner on WFG and the results were not pretty. Curtains, drips and sags -- even more than my usual quota!!

[jclays]

My boat is a 1966 Californian express cruiser (I know they are known for trawlers). All Philippine mahogany interior, also on the house exterior on both sides of the companion way and including the door and hatch. All finished with Petites Captains varnish Traditional Amber. Not clear. The amber varnish gives such a warm glow especially at night with a few cabin lights on. Ten coats applied sanded in between coats with 320. First coat thinned 30%, Sanded with 220. Next coat 20% sanded 220 then the subsequent coats where thinned between 5 and 10% for better flow. Warm and dry here in So. California. Sanded with 320 after the 3rd coat. Finish left gloss. If you want to dull the gloss then buff with oil or Johnson paste wax dipped 0000 steel wool. I like the way the light plays off the gloss. Its not a super gloss. Good Luck. just be patient. Put one coat at a time then walk away and clean up. Come back the next day and sand any imperfections/drips wipe with mineral spirits and a clean rag and start over again. Its important to walk away or you'll be tempted to fix any runs. Multiple THIN coats are the trick. Oh and gobs of patience.

[Kpyto]

First and foremost... Thank you Lew, C.Ross, and jclays for your relevant insight. It's just what I need to help ease away the anxiety of my first "epic scale" varnish job. It'll be great, and I'll take the advice of laying down a coat and walking away to heart. Thanks again.

As for the boat... yes, she'll remain on the Mississippi as a sweet water boat for the forseeable future.

I'm almost leaning towards the Clear Gloss... but not having to sand (as much) on a project as big as this; the time savings would certainly be huge! Still a bit undecided. Delamination would certainly not be a desired result after all of my hard work.

Here's a thought... being as I am at the boat on the weekends, and wanting to stay away from a total WFG... would it be worth it to alternate? Perhaps put down two coats of the WFG (50% and 25%), followed by a coat of CG before I left for the week... come back, the following week, a coat of WFG, then a coat of CG? Just a thought..., your thoughts?

Thanks again... I really appreciate all the information you've all provided so far. I'm excited about finally rounding the corner of my rehab job... but I want to make sure I'm doing it the right way... I don't plan on doing this again for a while... unless of course that perfect 47 Commander comes along! *grin*:o

[pcford]

I'm almost leaning towards the Clear Gloss... but not having to sand (as much) on a project as big as this; the time savings would certainly be huge!




Not really. Sanding of the raw wood will take the same in either case. Intermediate sanding will go quickly...except for blocking at coat 5 or 6 and then as needed.

Sanding is what makes the varnish look good.

There is no free lunch.

[C. Ross]

Probably not a good idea to alternate varieties of varnish. There are plenty of threads on the forum about someone applying Brand A on top of Brand B and things turning out badly.

I also just remembered that WFG needs to be sanded if you don't recoat within 72 hours, but you need to wait 24 hours between coats. http://www.epifanes.com/eproducts.htm So if you can only work on weekends, and you can put on two coats per weekend, and you want 8 coats of build (the minimum, I'd think) you're going to have to sand three times anyway, as opposed to 7 times if you do Clear Gloss. Might tip things back to Clear Gloss?

[Lew Barrett]

An interior job dances to it's own beat. I think interiors are the hardest work going if you think purely in terms of refinishing because of all the inside corners and odd contortionist things you have to do to get around, and in that respect sanding (and cleaning up) fewer times is not without gain. But ultimately, as has been said, you do have to sand back to flat and that entails the removal of a certain amount of material.

What you might try to get a taste of how to go forward would be to use WFG on some specified area and see if you even like varnishing without sanding. It's an odd feeling deal, and it takes some concentration. But ultimately with varnish, it's very hard to make a mistake you can't recover from.

Don't sweat the details too much and get going and by the sixth or seventh coat you will be an expert. It's really pretty hard to screw it up if you proceed with a degree of calm and a willingness to try something different when the approach you have taken proves not to pan out. Just don't repeat the same mistakes over and over without making some adjustments.

[Kpyto]

Thanks again for the comments. I think more and more I'm leaning towards the Clear Gloss over the Wood Finish. Makes more sense to me I suppose, althought my progress will be a bit on the slower side... let's see here... I'll attach a picture of the outside for now, and see if I can't get some interior shots uploaded this weekend for you all...
http://www.whatfeelsgood.com/Boat/42Commander/HomeAug06.gif

[C. Ross]

I know... it's fiberglass... but it's all wood on the inside!:D

What?! We wasted all this damned good advice on a plastic boat!<wink>

She looks good, and at the end of the day, if your workmanship is as good as your questions, she'll turn out great no matter which specific approach you take. As someone smart here once said, finishes are 90% labor and 10% materials.

Keep us posted!

[Kpyto]

Another quick question. :confused:There are a few pieces of mahogany plywood that I have replaced due to their poor condition, or becuase they were messed up by a previous owner. My question is this...

What should I use to seal the edges of the plywood? Will my first coat of varnish (50%) be okay, or should I use another product? Again, this is all interior stuff, but I'm assuming it's a good idea to seal the wood to prevent varnish lifting... Your thoughts and comments are appreicated.

Thanks again for all the help and comments. Staining this weekend. :D

[Lew Barrett]

CPES is a good sealer, but you can use thinned varnish, or even shellac. Shellac is good if you just want to slap a couple of quick coats on and move forward building, but it's not as impermeable as CPES.

[Canoeyawl]

How's the weather, Lew?

[C. Ross]

The plywood is prone to blotching if you stain without sealing. I'd seal all of the ply including edges with sanding sealer, stain, then let 'er rip with the varnish.

[Kpyto]

Ordered all of my stuff yesterday from Classic Boat Connection. They tell me I should have everything by Thursday sometime, maybe even today - but I'll plan on Thursday or Friday. I'm excited!

I ended up deciding to go with just the normal Clear Gloss from Epifanes. It's tried and true, and the comments about using CPES and the Wood Finish Gloss... well, for my project (interior) and working time (weekends only), it makes sense.

I did order Epifanes brushes...we'll see how they work. In the past I've only used foam brushes on smaller projects, but one as big as this... well, it would seem wise to get something better.

This pas weekend my dad and I put together a new galley cabinetry unit that we designed. The galley on the '67 and '68 42 Commander Aft Cabins left a lot to be desired in terms of storage - there was very little. The design is clean, and uses the same techniques as Chris Craft used in other woodwork - no glue, screws and bungs, simple construction. My plan was to have someone get on the boat, and say that they "never knew Chris Craft offered additional cabinetry."

Onward and upward...:o

[jclays]

Kpyto
Just use varnish for everything you'll be fine. Thin the first coat about 40% let dry a day. Sand down the raised grains and next coat thin about 20% sand and start building coats. I usually thin 5 to10% its warm and dry in So California. Sand in between coats. Some like 220 grit in between coats. I usually switch to 320 once the layers start feeling smooth. After the finish coat has dried about a week or 2 depending on the weather if you like the satin hand rubbed not sooo glossy look. A rub down with Johnson's paste wax applied with 0000 steel wool then a buff out does the trick.

[Kpyto]

Just as they said.. ordered on Tuesday, and yesterday when I got home from work I had Christmas in August on my doorstep. All of my items showed up, so this weekend will be another busy weekend on the 42.

I'm anxious to start staining and varnishing, but I have a couple of little areas that need to be addressed. Areas in my initial sanding that didn't go so well... imperfections that I found when going back over everything with the 150 grit. So, this weekend I'll finish up that, finish up on the cabinetry that was added, and then start cleaning! Hopefully by next weekend I'm ready to go for the stain...

[Kpyto]

It's been a while, but I figured I'd come in with a little update... by last fall I had started to put everything back together... sort of. All of the main woodwork is done on the interior. The rest (doors, sliding doors, drawers, and trim) are either in process in my basement, or at the stripper awaiting the call to be picked up. After 4 and a half plus years, I'm about to make the 42 Chris Craft Commander livable again. Pictures will come in the not too distant future. First, it's time for another thread... I need help with what to finsh my new teak and holly plywood flooring with...

[Lew Barrett]

Good going, Kpyto.

Jake....the weather is fabulous today......can't remember what it was like last time this thread surfaced :)

[Canoeyawl]

Thanks for the update, Kpyto.

It is socked in down here Lew.
Perfect, Quiet...

[Kpyto]

A recap...

I just looked through the thread... I asked for a lot of advice, and got it. How did I move foreward, and how did the results end up? Well, here goes...

I sanded all surfaces down to bare wood (as much as I could given how deeply the paint had penetrated the wood in some areas) with a final sand of 150 grit. After that, I stained the entire interior with Velvet Oil in "Warm Cherry." It's the same that my father used on his 1966 Chris Craft Commander's mahogany interior. At least they'll match. Someone going down the dock might actually think Chris Craft produced them with that color... *grin*

After the stain, I started the varnishing. I used Epifanes clear gloss, cut 50% with the first coat - this was used for all surfaces - even the backs and edges of any new plywood that I installed. Second coat was 25%, and each coat thereafter was cut 10%. I did not want to go for a perfectly flat finish, and I did not want a gloss finish in the end. With this in mind I ended up putting the first three coats of varnish on without sanding, then sanded down starting after the 3rd coat. I sanded using 220 grit (3M professional, it's purple and did not clog... awesome stuff), and applied an additional 2 coats of Epifanes clear gloss. After those two, I finished off with two coats of Epifanes rubbed effect. I'll post pictures as soon as I get a bit more time, but the results turned out really good.

As mentioned, I'm working on the doors at home along with some newly fabricated trim that was either damaged or missing when I purchased the boat. The rest of the trim I'm still waiting for from the stripper. Poor guy... 150 pieces of either varnsihed or epoxy painted mahogany. I'm sure my bill at the end of it will be more than expected, but keeping my sanity is worth it I think. To think that a previous owner of this boat (and likely someone that helped covering all the wood with white paint) asked me after I purchased the boat why I'd want to spend the time bringing the wood back... as he told me... "It's just crappy wood under there, not worth it if you ask me." Uh... yeah...