Last coat of varnish?

[mhoffman]

I have been thinking I am putting on my last coat of varnish for the past three coats. Every time I finish and look back at the work I see dust and a couple of sags. Each coat is better than the last but, I'd like to put this portion of the project to bed. Is there any way I can sand or buff out the final coat and not end up with a low gloss finish? I tried hand sanding the last coat lightly with 320 then 400, followed by fine bronxw wool and ended up with a matte finish. I was thinking just sanding out the couple of runs and sags then buffing out the whole thing with mirror glaze to get the dust bumps off, but I don't know if I'll end up with the same level of gloss after all that work. Any suggestions?
Oh yeah, its a 22ft mhogany runabout- and the whole thing is finished bright. If this were a couple of small pieces I wouldn't care so much.
Thanks in advance-
Matt

[Rocky]

Somebody answer this question! I've actually considered cheating with clearcoat or wax.

[J. Dillon]

The best source for varnish answers is the book by "Brightwork" by Rebecca J. Wittman. She has all the right answers.

It's a bit tedious to acheive that kind of perfection. :(

I gave up long ago and decided if it looks good from 10 feet away, it'll do. Besides varnish gets banged up pretty soon. ;)

By the way my thanks for service in the USN and to our country.

ex USN

JD

[mhoffman]

Thanks JD- not too often get thanks for what we do. Were you a Submariner?
As to the brightwork book- I read that and she does not really address my dust bump problem. From acroos the garage the finish looks great, but standing in the cockpit looking down is another story. Just seems there is a trick to complete the process properly I haven't figured out yet. Still thinking low speed polisher with mirror glaze after 400-600 sanding of problem spots, then good wax....
Matt

[J. Dillon]

Matt,

When you find the answer to varnish problems write a book and publish it. ;) You might make a fortune. :D Hey besides ya got to look ahead when under way. You'll never see the varnish flaws at all.

Not a submariner but what you guys call a "target", aircraft carriers, the noisy service :eek: .

JD

[Rocky]

Yeah, Rebecca was obviously getting paid by the hour. I didn't find her book all that useful either.

[Concordia..41]

Hello, my name's Margo and I'm a varnish-holic :D

Group replies, "Hello Margo"

I feel your pain and would be interested in the buffing results if you try it. There's been some discussion here before, but I think it was along the lines of 1500 - 3000 grit.

What I remember from prior discussions is that exterior varnishes like Epifanes are flexible by design to expand and contract with temperature changes, etc. For that reason, it was said they don't buff well.

This impacted me when I was going to hand rub and/or buff an interior piece. I'd used Epifanes 'cause it was handy and when I ran into problems one of the folks here that does a lot of furniture explained the flexible vs. hard varnish thing and why the more flexible exterior stuff wouldn't buff. I was told to wait six months for it to cure hard and then try it.

I've gotten my best results (10" standard) by wetsanding with 400 and spraying the final coat(s).

Good luck ;)

[ 01-23-2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[John Blazy]

Listen carefully to these words from a professional finisher of high - gloss metallics, clears, and high-build clears over figured woods:

The last coat is NEVER laid down perfectly enough to leave as is
Thank God for buffing compounds. I've gone through the protocols of wetting down the spray booth floor to trap dust, taking my shirt off (lint control), spraying with my back to the exhaust, so that dust does't come off me and onto the work, filtering through ten micron filters, and still will get nerds in the topcoat.

After the last coat (runs and all) has cured thoroughly, razor lance the runs off flush with the surrounding surface (not the whole run at one time, take off in layers). Same with dust specks, by cross-scraping to level. Beginners can omit this step and wet sand all this, but use a hard block on runs, soft block on rest (400 - 600 grit)
Then wet sand 1000 grit rinsing often, so you don't drag clogs of finish and scratch more. Then go 1500 up to 2000 grit depending on how "wet" you want the final to look. Then buff with polishing compound (3M Perfect-It, Maguire's or what the auto guy says to buy for first stage buffing)using an eight inch foam or lambs wool pad on a six or seven inch velco disc chucked in a variable speed drill. On a SEPARATE pad, final polish the swirl marks out with machine glazing compound (swirl mark remover).

Tips:
Wet sand, and buff a small area all the way to final gloss, so you can see the dramatic results to give you motivation to do the whole boat. This will also show you how much effort you need to buff the sand scratches, and may not need the final 2000 grit, if the compounding stage is cutting the finish well.

DO NOT wet sand ANY edge peaks - you'll sand right through no matter how careful you are - the coating is super thin there as it is.

When buffing with the pad, always angle the drill (or buffer if you have one) over an edge so that the cutting arc is going over and away from the edge, not coming into the edge.

Use a spray bottle of water on the surface and the pad every so often to re-liquify the buffing compounds, and avoid burning into the finish - go easy.

Wash the first stage of compound off the boat well before machine glaze final gloss.

Don't use any other 'miracle' polishing /buffing system (like micromesh, NicSand etc.) - just automotive wet paper 600, 1000, 1500 then polishing compounds. They cut the fastest.

[Dan McCosh]

As basically i'm a "10-feet-away" varnisher myself (with the exception of the mast, which is more like 20 feet or more), this might not be much help. But I've been using Crystal varnish for the past year or so, and it's extremely quick-drying, hence less prone to dust problems. Starting with a clean can, brush, etc., (all the usuals), it might help. Runs and sags are mainly a product of technique, and ought to be seen and fixed while applying. I think any buffing process intended to get a high gloss would mean a hard coating, such as automotive lacquer--finishes that are unsuitable for a marine environment.

[John Blazy]

Listen carefully to Margo. If the final coat isn't hard yet it will let you know in a most graphic way at the buffing stage. I heard that Epiphanes is quite soft, so if yours is soft, it should still wet sand and buff, but you must test a small area first, and go very lightly and buff with lots of water / compound at slower speeds.

[Scott Rosen]

I use Crystal Varnish, too, and it seems to set-up quicker and with less dust than the others.

Buffing spar varnish is not a good idea. It's too soft and will make a mess of your varnish job.

If you really want a "perfect" finish, then you need to do this: Sand your finish coat of spar varnish perfectly fair with 320 grit. Then apply a few coats of a two-part linear polyurathane clear coat with UV protection, like Sterling Website (http://detcomarine.com) or Five-Year Clear Website (http://www.fiveyearclear.com/).

Next, follow the wet-sanding, buffing and polishing routine described by John Blazy. The Two-part LPU is harder than spar varnish and will buff to a mirror finish. Perfection will be yours.

[Concordia..41]

Re: RW book. I learned several things from it. The most important lesson was that if I did everything to the exact degree she specifies (taping and retaping, waiting for the exact right weather, etc) I'd never get done.

I also learned dozens of things that are helpful. You just gotta take what applies to you and factor it with your own experiences and what you know works for you. There are too many variables in boats, climates, working conditions, materials, and personalities for there to be one "right" way.

Also, her book was published over 10 years ago. Lots of things have changed and there are a lot of new products out there. I heard her speak a couple of years ago and nearly fell out of my chair when she denounced the 3M silver tape! Oh, the hours I spent detailing off that crap!!!

Margo's tip for the day:

Have a standard and stick to it. On the Concordia, mine's 10" because I do a lot of brightwork and it's a reflection (pun intended :D ) on me.

10" = your nose is in my bright work. You can crawl around on your hands and knees and even look at the underside of things. I'm not saying you won't find anything - just that you gotta look. This is extreme as well as insane.

3' = still high on the compulsive scale. Three foot is boat show standard and capable of the most particular person sitting in the cockpit and looking around without being able to see a run or dust. Looks perfect photographed - even close ups.

6' = getting closer to realistic. Six foot looks fine from the dock or someone standing on deck and looking down at the hatches and trim. Still looks just fine photographed.

10' = more like it for the average varnish person. Gloss is good and it shows pride in your work to anyone walking down the dock. Still looks great in pictures.

50' = work/family boat standard. Fifty foot is perfectly fine if your choice is to by happy that things look ok to other boats passing you on the waterway. Fifty foot works really well for folks that would rather be enjoying their boats, their families, and their time on the water.

Where ever your compusive traits land you in the spectrum, define a standard that fits your ability, time frame and needs (real vs. percieved) and try not to make yourself too crazy!!!

Cheers!

[mhoffman]

Thanks all-
I am using Detco Crystal and it does "skin-over" quick. I also tried to creat a clear environment- painted garage floor, damp mopped, removed shirt, no air flow in garage for two days before mopping, that sort of thing. But those little dust bits are stil there. Very low density across the field per se, but annoying nonetheless.
I have a buddy that has a auto finishing shop and has offered to let me use his booth, but that seems a bit much. Surely the average boat does not go through these steps.
I have a slow speed polisher, and obvious have some practice sanding, or I wouldn't have gotten to this point, but will I be removing a level of gloss that can't be replaced. In other words, maybe the Chemist can help here, is there a gloss additive so to say, that will be removed from the top of the film, that is not homogenous through the layer? I mean the dried film looks great- brilliant shine and all, but that shine just amplifies any defects. (those little flippin' dust grains!)
So, leave well enough alone, keep trying for a more perfect coat, or sand and buff? I'll go for a simple majority.
Maybe I could try to post some pics to show what I mean.
Thanks-
even to you targets, JD... ;)

[Concordia..41]

Ask a varnish question and we're like moths to the flame :D

BTW John - glad to have you aboard. As a person with a stained glass fetish nearly as strong as my compulsion for varnish, I was absolutely blown away by your website.

- M

[ 01-23-2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[J. Dillon]

I like Matt's goal of perfection. I know it reflects well in his sub duties. 4.0.

I think I'm going to print out Margo's "tip of the day " ;)

JD

[NormMessinger]

I don't mean to moth off here but....

Didn't the chemist once hold forth on the ?ffects of sanding on the last layer of varnish? It knocks off the molecular bonded layer that helps varnish resist weathering, or something like that?

[John Blazy]

Thanks Margo. I've moved on to buffing glass now for teardrop edges and scratch removal - what a difference yet many similarities! you think buffing coatings is hard :D ! See more pics of my cool glass and progress pics of my new glass - bottomed boat here - http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro

If I had your boat Matt, I would consider only razor lancing the dust nibs off, and micro buffing with a dremel/water on those spots only. Only considering it. You may create points of unwanted interest. Yes, some silane additives for mar - resistence will be buffed off the topcoat, but final waxing or "Klasse" type polishes can restore a little.

[ 01-23-2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: John Blazy ]

[mhoffman]

John-
its not a perfection goal; I just figured one step in the building process needed to be correct. I am almost embarrassed by how much epoxy and filler I used to fix other mistakes, so the final coat should at least "look" right.

Margo-
I like your standards. I finished last night putting on the last coat and walked (gently, so as not to stir up any dust) out of the garage in to the house. I stopped and looked back across the garage at the boat (I left the lights on so I would not disturb and air circulation paths set up by the heat generated by the lights) and could see in the reflection those little guys finding a new home in my varnish. I found just two small sags this morning before work, not sure what to do about those though...
Again, thanks for everyone's input. Still open for suggestions....
Matt smile.gif

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If I had an opportunity to spray booth my boat, (and a painter of course) Man.... would I grab it. Its the environment!!! A sp[ray booth for a 36' Chris...Hmmmmmmmmmm :D

[ 01-23-2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm ]

[Ross Faneuf]

My local professional varnisher uses the following product to buff up minor problems:

3M™ Finesse-It™ Marine Paste Compound

Description on the 3M website:

Removed huge URL here to make page a proper size. Easy enough to find the 3M pages for Finesse-It and Perfect-It (for the really fussy).

Since Ceol Mor isn't an ultimate top-end yacht, and I mostly want to fix up things like the occasional dead bug and a sag or 2, Finesse-It does a great job.

[ 01-25-2003, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Ross Faneuf ]

[Donn]

:cool:

[mhoffman]

John-
what's "razon lancing"? I tried to look it up but couldn't find any info. Do you mean just cutting down the blemishes by hand with a razor or scalpel, or is there a specific tool/technique?
:confused:
Thanks-
Matt

[pcford]

After doing boat restoration for the last 30 years and specializing in varnished mahogany speedboats for over 20 of that, I may have some useful insights on this topic.

Some random thoughts in no particular order:

1. Clients may know nothing about marine carpentry, nothing about surface prep, nothing about stain, nothing about varnishing beyond looking for sags and runs, but they will whine and whimper if there are motes of dust in the final varnish coat. Everything else is controllable, but the presence of dust is influenced by so many factors that the only real guarantee of perfection is a good relation with god.
2. Though the book gets a lot of accolades in this neighborhood, Rebecca J. Wittman’s "Brightwork" is to be used with a bit of skepticism. First, as someone else noted, the boat is about a dozen years old. Things change. There were some things advocated in the book that the better varnishers do not do, for example, the use of foam brushes. The tone is a bit over the top precious for my taste. She wrote a local (Seattle) column on finishing years ago; the name of the column was “Pensamento.” (It’s just varnish, for gosh sakes, not some religious activity!) A competing boating mag wrote a parody column once entitled “Pimiento.” The book is delightful eyecandy. The boat pictures are great; a friend of mine took many of them. The boats are not all Rebecca’s jobs though. In fact, one is mine. (My is the modern construction guide boat. I installed floorboards and did a recoat.) It’s a great coffee table book.
3. LPU finishes should be used on plank-on-frame at your peril. There was a time about a dozen years ago that these were used on traditional boats. There were spectacular failures. The stuff peeled off in great sheets. The theory is that LPU finishes are too rigid for a dynamic substrate. They are used with great success on plastic boats and even on cold molded ones.
4. High quality traditional varnishes should be used, such as Epifanes (pronounced eppy-FAW-ness in Dutch in case you have been wondering. I say eppyfanes like everybody else) or the Italian varnishes, Stopanni and etc. Contrary to opinion in this thread, it buffs fine. You don’t have to wait long for drying, maybe three days or so.
4. I have used buffing with success for several years. I would agree with John Blazy’s method in general. I use 1200, 1500 and 2000 grit paper; I then use Meguiar’s buffing products. These are available in auto-body shop supply stores. Sometimes a good general parts store will have them. I start with 3 or 5, sorry can’t remember right now, then proceed to 9 and finish with 7. You then apply pure carnauba wax over the top. The gloss is reduced a bit; the saying is that a buffed finish is 10% less glossy. The client will not know the difference. And he will be very impressed with the dust-free surface. And it feels very sexy indeed.

Does anyone know what John Blazy’s sigfile means: “wusses use flathead, boys use phillips, and real men use square drive?” Very curious. Almost Zen-like in its inscrutability. Hmmm.

[John Blazy]

You nailed it Matt, Just slicing the blemish flush. I used 'lancing' cuz doctors use the term for cutting warts off flush with the skin etc. I think - been awhile since I learned the term.

You can test the buffability of your finish (never worked with Detco Crystal) by leaving a desk lamp or trouble light bulb on near an inconspicuous part of the boat finish (to accelarate cure with the heat), or coat a test panel (preferably) and keep warm for a few weeks. Then even the softest topcoat should be hard enough to buff. I would suggest leaving it in the sun, but not with the cold that is even in your neck of the woods. - JB

[steve sparhawk]

I've worried finishes to death before and had to watch the results get banged. Nice while it lasted but my stuff wasn't in a museum. I sprayed some auto clear-coat directly on wood with no primer last summer. Put a hell of a finish on in a flash. Recoated in thirty minutes and it melted in like laquer. It was catalysed and got hard too. Seems like a very durable finish.

In reference to the stresses of boat use, it has to be flexible enough for the metal expansion and twisting on autos and UV resistant? You bet. Take a look at your own newer car. Some new (and very expensive ) stuff is claiming a lifetime warrenty.

I havn't had a lot of time on the stuff yet but it beats the socks off varnishing. I never thought varnishing in the traditional way was for the edification of the varnisher but some do and I say , if it is so for you, go for it. I'd rather be sailing.

[ 01-23-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: steve sparhawk ]

[Nicholas Carey]

If your sags are kinda burly, a properly sharpened cabinet scraper is extremely useful for getting rid of the bulk of the sag.

Another useful product is Mirka's Abralon, designed for repairing and buffing out clearcoat and two-part finishes and mold finishing.

Abralon is an open-cell foam pad with an open knit fabric face. The abrasives are bonded to the fabric. Grit sizes: 180/360/500/1000/2000/4000. It's designed to be used lubricated with water or petroleum-based lubricants (eg, mineral spirits or mineral oil)

Here's Mirka's guide to topcoat repair with Abralon: http://www.mirka-usa.com/downloads/pdf_files/topcoat_repair.pdf

Because the grits used and the lubricants, you're extremely unlikely to cut through the topcoat or burn it. You'd have to really work at it.

You can get Abralon from Fiberlay: http://www.fiberlay.com/

[Bob Cleek]

Boy, there's something wierd with this thread... it's stretching over maybe three screens wide and a real pain in the ass to read. Funny though! Okay, I'll bite....

If you have sags ("curtains") in your finish, you need to refine your application technique. Simple as that. You aren't going to get far trying to remove them and buff them out. You have to let them harden all the way through and sand flush, or scrape them off, feather into the surrounding finish and start over again. Sags, as you must know, are the result of putting on too damn much varnish. The solution is easy... don't lay the stuff on so damn thick. After years of wasting time and varnish, I've learned to slap it on as thick as I dare for maybe the first six or eight coats solely to build up the depth. I only bother to sand out major blemishes if they occur along the way, using a ScotchBrite pad to skuff it up between coats. It generally takes care of all the dust and, if not, well... the dust gets encapsulated like a fly in amber. You never see it. Before I go for the "money shot," I take the piece outside if possible and give it a decent sanding with 120 and 220 to fair the surface. That keeps most of the dust out of the shop. Only then do I start laying up the finish coats... two or three.

I only use ScotchBrite between finish coats. It doesn't really create any dust coarse enough to stand proud on the finish. I tack between coats, of course, with a CLEAN tack rag. I prefer foam brushes up to the 3" size... matter of preference, I suppose. Took me ages to try them and I never looked back. Forget "rolling and tipping"... please! The finish coats go on fairly thin so curtains are never a problem. You have to move FAST so that your varnish will level fully before kicking off. This is a function of temperature, humidity and the phase of the moon, but a little Penetrol on a hot day won't hurt.

I realize there are all sorts of super-fine rubbing compounds on the market, particularly for auto aplications. Still, I've never needed anything more than plain old rottenstone and pumice. Works great if you want an absolutely perfect varnished surface on a piece of furniture.

Now, as for "perfect" finishes... on boats... We have all had finish coats go funky because somebody turned on the full shopvac before the stuff dried. LOL That goes with the territory. Still, if you maintain a relatively clean environment (i.e. outdoors on a fairly windless day is just fine) and (here's the trade secret) you keep your brush and varnish pot CLEAN, providing you put it on properly, it should come out damn near perfect. If you aren't working in a dustbin, odds are most all of the crap you are seeing is coming from your brush and/or your can. What little imperfections you should have after varnishing right will wear off with use in short order. If you must, a light buffing with a soft rag will remove quite of few of them easily. If you find yourself having to grind out the "finish" coat to get it looking presentable, well... you're a dirty varnisher and that's easier to cure than rubbing out a bad job.

(Okay, Dave and Scott... you guys got your fingers in your ears, cause they're gonna scream! LOL)

[Paul Scheuer]

Makes me dizzy.
Usually it's a oversized picture that
stretches the envelope. Don't see any.
Maybe it's the long 3M website address.

I tried to read the whole thread to see
if anyone has mentioned humidity as a
factor in getting the varnish to spread
out so that it doesn't run. Seems to
help.

When I go for the "perfect" last coat,
I build a tent over the work to control
the dust long enough for the varnish to skin.
Even so, there's usually a few particles that
find their way in. A light hand buff with a
wool cloth gets it good enough for me.

[Ross Faneuf]

Removed huge URL. Page is now readable.

[Rocky]

Oh, thank you!

[GROOVY]

Matt
I think you are looking too hard!
Thats the advice I took, and you know what I cant even find all those "bad" spots now and in the sun out of the shop it looks even better!
Post a picture..

[Dan McCosh]

This got me to thinking about that "last coat" thing. I'm about to start refinishing a spar that was last stripped maybe 35 years ago. I've been putting a couple of coats on every year. I don't think there is such a thing as a "last coat." Sort of like the last word.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

So I have my swim platform (12'X 30"teak) all sanded and CPESed and ready to finish. Conrad S. gave me the tip about Automotive clear coat with 25% more flex agent in it, two coats. I am taking the platform over to the body shop we send all of the dealership's customers to... They are going to spray it N/C :cool: I will let you guys know how it looks.. pic.. Conrad says it works really well.

[capt jake]

I don't think there is such a thing as a "last coat." Sort of like the last word. Ha ha, very well put! :D :D

[Concordia..41]

Yes Dan and Capt. Jake – when I first saw the title of the thread, my knee jerk and WA response was, "Yeah, they keep that in a chalice known as the Holy Grail." LOL

Regards –
M

[mhoffman]

Sorry, no picts yet- need to borrow a digital camera. Anyhow, after everyone's input, here was my attempt this past weekend:
-sand out the couple of drips (curtains, Bob taught me that one ;) ) and feather in with 600/800 wet those spots
-completely sand boat 1200 then 1500 wet (used water from a spray bottle and changed paper frequently) Just wanted to fair out the dust bumps
-compound and "fine-ess" with wool bonnet
-polish with mirror glaze on foam pad
-wax with foam pad.
I was worried about the film being too soft to use a machine on it. It had cured about three days in a 50-60 degree garage before I started. I just kept the buffer on the next to lowest setting, kept the pad moist with a water spray every now and then, and kept moving.

Margo, it now passes the 6 in test.
:cool: !
I also now have a great sympathy for employees who claim carpel tunnel syndrome. Took probably 20 hours all told, but it looks and feels REALLY slick.
Bob, you are right, my shop/garage is a dust pit- I've been building a boat in it for the last two years with two feet of walkway around it, so I have to do the best I can with what I have. I tried to get it clean enough, but I think I would have been better off to push the boat outside, but I did not want to wait until spring to finish this step. :rolleyes:
I tried the roll and tip thing for the first few coats- not completely satisfied- the vertical portions were always a problem. Tried a straight foam brush for a couple of coats and the varnish was too thick- since these were build coats, it seemed to me, and then I ended up with runs, curtains, sags, what have you. The last three or so (I think I am up to eight or so) I used an expensive, compared to most brushes, I suppose, badger hair varnish brush. By no means the fastest, in fact I think the slowest, but it gave the most even coverage, no brush marks, and "felt" the best. (Since I think I am supposed to enjoy this boat building endeavor...)
Maybe not the best plan, and by no means the most efficient, but it worked for me. smile.gif
Thanks again everybody.
Matt

[John Blazy]

Gotta get us some pictures! Speaking of badger hair brushes, I was at the Cleveland boat show last night, and there were quite a few wood boats, and one in the Lyman owner's club booth was all brightwork - inside and out, and looking at it very closely, I aked the owner if he rubbed out the topcoat, (and I know what I am looking for to see this) and to my surprise he said that was straight off the badgerhair brush. Upon 6" inspection I could see super tiny dust nibs and other artifacts, but it really fooled me! He also said it was Captain's Varnish, and I thought it looked a little too milky - not crystal clear enough for me, but awesome nonetheless.- JB