Want a good laugh

[ccx2]

Im building a 16' Garvey as some of you know, its my first build and use of epoxy, over plywood,and ive sheathed it and turned it over and filet and taped the chines and transoms and have mostly finished the bow and midship seat. Im on my 10th ,yes tenth GALLON of west epoxy, [ok,ha ha, pick yourself off the floor] and i still have to build the rear seat and glass the floor and coat the inside of the hull. Sheesh, ill have 13 or 14 gallons in it buy the time im done. The plans said i would use about 1 1/2 gallons if i didnt encapsulate and just painted the plywood. Now i know ive over mixed some batches and probly sanded off half as much as ive applied but does that sound like alot to you guys? [ Yeah yeah, wipe the tears , and your sides will stop hurtin:)]

[Ian McColgin]

And I thought I was profligate when I built Leeward, Gardner's 18' gunning dory.

There is something very odd in this.

[SScoville]

I'm fairly new to this too, but that's definitely a lot of (way too much!) epoxy. Figuring out how much you need to mix up for a certain task takes some practice. How much are you throwing away?

Are you building a Ben Garvey? I couldn't find hardly any pictures of that design online.

[FiremanJim]

I'm building a Rangeley Lakes boat (15') and so far I've used less than 1 gallon of resin & hardener. I used a sealer coat on the outside, then wetted out a 6 oz fiberglass coth layer, then added 4 filler coats with sanding in between.

I still need to glass the inside, and I'll probably add 1 filler coat, but I expect to use about 1 1/2 - 2 gallons all told.

[stoneyreef]

I read somewhere if one is going to fiberglass a hull, plywood-epoxy-fiberglass cloth-epoxy for a 17' boat they would use about 18 gallons.

[Concordia...41]

I read somewhere if one is going to fiberglass a hull, plywood-epoxy-fiberglass cloth-epoxy for a 17' boat they would use about 18 gallons.

Greater than a gallon of epoxy per foot (or half foot considering there's two sides), but still that seems like an awful lot. :confused:

[ccx2]

I'm fairly new to this too, but that's definitely a lot of (way too much!) epoxy. Figuring out how much you need to mix up for a certain task takes some practice. How much are you throwing away?

Are you building a Ben Garvey? I couldn't find hardly any pictures of that design online.
The learning curve has just started to bend in my favor as far as over mixing but i may have thrown away as much as a gallon or a couple .
Yes im building Doug Hylan's Ben Garvey 15'9"

[ccx2]

And I thought I was profligate when I built Leeward, Gardner's 18' gunning dory.

There is something very odd in this.

SO, do remember how much you used?

[Richard Jones]

At least you'll know that the boat will never fall apart....

[Baltimore Lou]

My guess is that you're throwing away LOTS of epoxy. One possible way to tell if much of this epoxy went into the boat would be to see how far your finished boat is off the designer's anticated weight. I believe epoxy weighs about 9 pounds/gallon. If ten or eleven gallons more than anticipated really went into the boat, you could expect it to be 100 pounds over designed weight. On a small boat, that would be significant.

[JimConlin]

In The New Testament, in the Gospel according to Meade* Chapter 7, Page 53, on the subject of how much epoxy to use, it sayeth:

Application....................................Cov erage Ft.^2/lb..Waste Rate
Initial saturation coat .............................. 35.....................20%
Secondary buildup coat..............................40.............. .......20%
Interlaminate glue joint...............................13............ .........20%
Fiberglass saturation coat (12 oz/yd^2)....12.....................10

*also known as The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, 5th edition.

In estimating epoxy usage, I tend to think in terms of #/ft^2 in an application, and theose rates would be, respectively, .029, .025., .077, and .083 lbs/ft^2. Rather than trying to measure every bloomin' piece of the boat, you might count sheets of plywood, yards of glass and square feet of timber. That'll give you an idea as to what HE would do.

[MiddleAgesMan]

....Im on my 10th ,yes tenth GALLON of west epoxy, [ok,ha ha, pick yourself off the floor]... Sheesh, ill have 13 or 14 gallons in it buy the time im done. The plans said i would use about 1 1/2 gallons if i didnt encapsulate.... [ Yeah yeah, wipe the tears , and your sides will stop hurtin:)]

ROTFLMAO!!! ;)

JK. :)

I think I used about twice as much as predicted on my pirogue and Goat Island Skiff, so at 1000% I'm thinking you (1) wasted more than you think and (2) probably left too much behind on the surface and/or in the cloth.

As long as your design can handle the extra weight it'll be fine, though. :)

[SScoville]

It's your first boat. Having finished my first and started a second, I can say, who cares? You're going to use more materials and spend more time and money than you thought. But that's just part of the process. Just don't go bankrupt buying epoxy.

Plus, if you really applied way too much, you can sand it off later.

[Bob Adams]

10 gallons on a 16 footer? Did you dip the girl in it?:rolleyes: All kidding aside, that does seem a bit excessive. Should be tough though.

[WX]

I haven't used that much on my 24 footer!

[Woxbox]

What's your typical batch size? A few ounces, a cup or two, or a pint or more? I've found that the best way to conserve and do a neat job is to mix up really small batches, oftentimes just a few ounces at a time.

[ccx2]

In The New Testament, in the Gospel according to Meade* Chapter 7, Page 53, on the subject of how much epoxy to use, it sayeth:

Application....................................Cov erage Ft.^2/lb..Waste Rate
Initial saturation coat .............................. 35.....................20%
Secondary buildup coat..............................40.............. .......20%
Interlaminate glue joint...............................13............ .........20%
Fiberglass saturation coat (12 oz/yd^2)....12.....................10

*also known as The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction, 5th edition.

In estimating epoxy usage, I tend to think in terms of #/ft^2 in an application, and theose rates would be, respectively, .029, .025., .077, and .083 lbs/ft^2. Rather than trying to measure every bloomin' piece of the boat, you might count sheets of plywood, yards of glass and square feet of timber. That'll give you an idea as to what HE would do.
Thanks Jim but i dont know Chinese:confused:. I do have to get that book though, looks very informative.

[ccx2]

What's your typical batch size? A few ounces, a cup or two, or a pint or more? I've found that the best way to conserve and do a neat job is to mix up really small batches, oftentimes just a few ounces at a time.
Two to six pumps, i think i tend to apply on the heavy side is my real problem if i have one.

[kingplanker]

Thanks Jim but i dont know Chinese:confused:. I do have to get that book though, looks very informative.http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00007601.jpgA very good book- a bit heavy on the technical side.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4340&familyName=WEST+System+-+The+Gougeon+Brothers+on+Boat+Construction

[ccx2]

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/woeimages/00007601.jpgA very good book- a bit heavy on the technical side.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=4340&familyName=WEST+System+-+The+Gougeon+Brothers+on+Boat+Construction
Thanks ,ill turn the pages on it but im not much of a techie:)

[Tom Hunter]

I'll second WoxBox, I use less than you are using, and I never mix more than two cups at a time and usually less.

[kingplanker]

I'll second WoxBox, I use less than you are using, and I never mix more than two cups at a time and usually less.

Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

+ chemist, accountant and indentured servant

[David W Pratt]

So you will have about $1500 in epoxy alone in her.
Good luck.

[spirit]

ccx2:

Are you by any chance using dynel fabric instead of glass?
Dynel swells a great deal in epoxy...

[Todd Bradshaw]

"- a bit heavy on the technical side."

uhhhhhh.....guys, being heavy on the technical side is the whole point of that book and why it's worth reading BEFORE starting any project that takes more than a couple squirts of epoxy.

[Dan McCosh]

Did the deck (45 ft.x10 ft.) with about three coats of epoxy saturating a layer if triaxial cloth, and used about six gallons. Sounds like you could have cast the whole craft in a mold with 12 gallons.

[Spokaloo]

Most that are using cloth set in epoxy are using 10-15 gallons for a 16' boat. Beginners typically will get a 60+% resin to cloth ratio, where experienced hands will drop that to 40% in a dry, tight layup.

Odds are you covered your glass in 3-4 coats of neat epoxy instead of using fairing fillers, then sanded most of your epoxy back off.

Numbers are high, but for contemporary glass over ply, thats not horrible.

E

[johnw]

Are you sure you need to glass the floor? It will give you good abrasion resitance, but you could seal it with a couple coats of penetrating epoxy.

[peter radclyffe]

you may be wests best customer

[esingleman]

I'd consider a double axle trailer at this point.

Only funnin' ya!!

Don't think you'll have any shrink swell issues.

[Brian Palmer]

Are you using Dynel or fiberglass? Dynel holds a lot more epoxy than fiberglass.

Brian

[StevenBauer]

I'd consider a double axle trailer at this point.


And maybe a bigger outboard! :eek:


:D

Steven

[ccx2]

Most that are using cloth set in epoxy are using 10-15 gallons for a 16' boat. Beginners typically will get a 60+% resin to cloth ratio, where experienced hands will drop that to 40% in a dry, tight layup.

Odds are you covered your glass in 3-4 coats of neat epoxy instead of using fairing fillers, then sanded most of your epoxy back off.

Numbers are high, but for contemporary glass over ply, thats not horrible.

E
That about sums it up.

[ccx2]

Are you sure you need to glass the floor? It will give you good abrasion resitance, but you could seal it with a couple coats of penetrating epoxy.
Dont need to glass the floor but i am because ive seen how easy the plywood dings/gouges with a dropped or tossed toll and it will be a fishing boat and i dont want to baby her so much.

[EyeInHand]

It's hard to laugh when you've been there.

I don't think you've hurt anything (except your wallet, certainly) but this may give you some frame of reference. I'm building two 14' decked skiffs. I've done fillets in the bows and around the transoms, glassed the insides and outsides of both hulls and the topsides of the decks, much of that with double layers of 6oz cloth, all with three coats of epoxy. The insides along the keels are rather heavy, as the goo puddled there and I let it stay since it flattened out nicely. Still, I've just barely used 3 gallons so far. That's 3 gallons for two 14' boats, inside and out.

I wouldn't say I'm all that good, but I am pretty poor - um - cheap, so I've only wasted maybe three cups altogether. If it's any consolation, I used about 5 gallons on my first boat, a 12' plywood skiff, but a lot of that ended up on the floor. I must say, after five years that part of the floor still looks brand new.

The fillets use up a surprising amount of epoxy, especially your first time when, if you're like me, you made them really thick. And you end up wasting a lot doing them because it hardens in the cup while you muck with getting them smooth. My guess is that's where most of your goo has gone, into making the fillets.

The skiff is still solid, too, by the way. Should be - the most expensive part of the whole boat is the bullet proof shell on it. Cost more than the rest of the boat combined. Sort of like putting a mink coat on a hobo.

[ccx2]

Are you using Dynel or fiberglass? Dynel holds a lot more epoxy than fiberglass.

Brian
Fiberglass, its either 7.5oz or 9.5oz dont remember right off. And in the beaching bottom area i doubled it.

[Richard Smith]

I am finding that since I started using a scale for measuring the amounts to be mixed, that I am using much less epoxy. The pump system seems to lock you into using preset minimums - using less than a full pump makes you (me) unsure of accuracy.

Also, I am exploring non-branded materials for fillers and extenders - talc, etc.

[Lewisboats]

So we have thick fabric, Lots of coats of unthickened epoxy, hours of removal of excess epoxy, possibly enlarged fillets and some waste...sounds like we have found your missing epoxy. I usually use 2 plastic spoons to measure and mix my epoxy 2:1. any error is very small and there is almost no waste at all. When wetting out cloth...a squeegee is very helpful in getting the most out of your epoxy... and keeping the cloth from floating which also wastes goop. Thickening agent when faring doubles or triples the volume of your epoxy while at the same time easing the sanding effort needed.

[RodB]

Two to six pumps, i think i tend to apply on the heavy side is my real problem if i have one.

I think your use... or "over use" is about par for beginners... it also sounds like you are mixing too much at a time.... which causes you to use much more than necessary.

Two scenarios....

1) Your standard way now... where you mix 4-6 ounces at a time (or more) ... and I bet pour it out on the cloth trying to spread it to a uniform thickness as best as you can. Now on the first wet out, if you are good with a squeege, this will not matter, cause you will deftly spread the epoxy to the proper level of "dryness" in the new cloth.... BUT... if you are applying the succeeding coats to fill the weave, mixing too much will definitely cause you to use up more epoxy than you need.

2) This is a method passed on to me by an experienced pro builder designer... that allows good control of epoxy thickness but also results in very uniform distribution.
First... cloth applied dry to start... then you insure that with the first wet out coat you only mix enough to allow for a good even spread of the epoxy... wetting out the cloth without any pooling, a nice uniform consistency almost "dry looking" results... only mixing enough that you can definitely work with and achieve a very uniform spread. The succeeding coats are applied with a technique that insures a very uniform thickness and minimal use of epoxy...

Coat number 2 is also a squeege coat, and requires much less epoxy than coat number one... you can pour it on, but the squeege is used to quickly apply this coat to just fill the weave a bit more. This coat is not all that much epoxy, but it goes on fast and even if you master the technique of lightly using the squeege speading the epoxy over the surface with the squeege at a 30 to 45 degree angle.

The final two coats are applied thusly...

Using a small platform (12" x 12" ply) called a "platten" mounted to a light stand or a stool... to get a nice working height... you only mix 3 ounces of epoxy at a time and dump it on the platten. Three ounces is about all you can mix that will not drip off the platten and you can apply all of it to the last drop before it starts to gel at all.

Install a coffee cup hook in the edge of your plywood platten to hang the roller when you are not using it and the roller pad can be used for awhile. Take a standard System III roller pad of 7" and cut it in half... using a 3" roller frame, load the roller with epoxy from the platten as you would in any roller pan.

Cover about 100 square inches at at time (10 x 10 inches) with the roller and immediately tip with a 2" or 3" foam brush. Roll the next section, and tip it towards the first section keeping a "wet line" as with rolling and tipping paint. Use a squeege to get every last drop of epoxy off of the platten and wipe it on the roller pad. . . no epoxy wasted!

This method allows for applying a total of 4 coats of neat epoxy on ply panels in a very uniform thickness, requiring minimal sanding.
Allow to totally cure and wash with water and a scotch bright pad...then use a sharp 2" paint scraper (I love Red Devil scrapers) to take off any high points.

Finally, use a 6" ROS to sand to a nice satin finish. This technique usually ends up with a epoxy mil thickness that properly covers the fabric after sanding. I was able to sand my bottom panels of my skiff, which are 24" by 18 feet in about 30 minutes with a right angle ROS and 80 grit. I don't see how the panel flatness could have been more uniformly achieved...

Do yourself a favor and buy the Gougeon book, it covers any questions you may have and is a very valuable reference.

Hope this helps.

RodB

[boylesboats]

Im building a 16' Garvey as some of you know, its my first build and use of epoxy, over plywood,and ive sheathed it and turned it over and filet and taped the chines and transoms and have mostly finished the bow and midship seat. Im on my 10th ,yes tenth GALLON of west epoxy, [ok,ha ha, pick yourself off the floor] and i still have to build the rear seat and glass the floor and coat the inside of the hull. Sheesh, ill have 13 or 14 gallons in it buy the time im done. The plans said i would use about 1 1/2 gallons if i didnt encapsulate and just painted the plywood. Now i know ive over mixed some batches and probly sanded off half as much as ive applied but does that sound like alot to you guys? [ Yeah yeah, wipe the tears , and your sides will stop hurtin:)]

That is not funny... its too expensive a waste in epoxy.. You should use at least 3 to 5 gallons max.... How much of it dripped onto the floor?

[ccx2]

A Clarification..... i just counted my receipts and i just cracked open the 8th gallon, a little better but still alot.

[ccx2]

That is not funny... its too expensive a waste in epoxy.. You should use at least 3 to 5 gallons max.... How much of it dripped onto the floor?
Alot:o And realistically a gallon or so dropped/over mixed, im probably not that far out of the norm.

[boylesboats]

Alot:o And realistically a gallon or so dropped/over mixed, im probably not that far out of the norm.

You'll get better... Its take experience...

[switters]

I will flat out admit that I am super cheep and can barely afford this silly boat building hobby. So after my first boat I start each epoxy session out with an epoxy plan. Where does the extra epoxy go if I have any left over? What do I do if I don't have enough mixed up?

One of the ways this works for me is that I try to be a good neighbor to the lady in the other half of the duplex. So when it is cutting time I cut out everything I can. That also leaves plenty of boat bits around that will need a coat of epoxy, like rudders, the insides of the air boxes, that sort of thing.

[James McMullen]

Most that are using cloth set in epoxy are using 10-15 gallons for a 16' boat.Yikes! That is literally double what I used to build my latest boat, a 16' Devlin Candlefish, which is a modern, stitch & glue, epoxy-intensive design. I am mystified how you could have used up so much extra. Not everything needs or wants a 1/4 shell of brittle resin "encapsulating"* it, you know.


*a waste of time on any piece of solid wood over about a 1/2 inch thick! You cannot "encapsulate" solid wood successfully over the long term.

[RFNK]

A couple of points: If it's cold where you are the epoxy will be really thick - better to use it when it's warm. If you're just sealing plywood, then just paint it on and don't worry about trying to paint over all the bits of grain etc. that stick up. Just get a thin coat on and let it set. Then sand it smooth but only smooth enough to get rid of the little bits that stick up, then give it another thin coat. That'll be plenty, it'll still be a little rough but that doesn't matter! Don't sand it again unless you want to smooth it for a finish coat.

If you're glassing, DON'T paint the wood with epoxy prior to putting the glass on. Just rough sand the wood and dust it off well. Then lay your glass on and wet the glass out with epoxy using a squeegee. Don't let it pool anywhere and don't try to cover the weave. It should just look wet. Then, once it sets, squeegee on another coat - this will fill the weave. Don't put any more epoxy on it - use a highbuild epoxy paint to give you a smooth base for your finish coats. Apply the highbuild within 24 hours of the second coat of epoxy and you'll get a chemical bond. Rick