Boat plans: what are/would you be interested in from Mystic Seaport?

[rbgarr]

As many know, the Seaport has various designers' plans. The collections vary widely and beyond plans of varying completeness, include things such as letters of correspondence, and doodles and drawings of gadgets and doohickies.

I suspect there might some (more) interest in purchasing plans from those collections if they were more easily accessible than by visiting the Seaport, perusing lists of plans and getting researchers' help to look at the hard copies before making decisons about whether the plans appeal enough to purchase. It can be time consuming.

Would it make sense to have online thumbnails of profiles, number and type of plans (suitable for and permitting construction), degree of difficulty for builders, for small boats (sail and oar only?) under twenty feet in length?

What do folks think and what would help?

N.B! This question is in no way a criticism of the wonderful books put out by the Seaport, Anne and Maynard Bray and Ben Fuller already! Please forgive me if I've stepped on toes (or overstepped!)

[TerryLL]

Would it make sense to have online thumbnails of profiles, number and type of plans (suitable for and permitting construction), degree of difficulty for builders, for small boats (sail and oar only?) under twenty feet in length?

What do folks think and what would help?


Yes, thumbnails would be a big help. I recently purchased three pages for the Mower-X Dory at $25 a page. I really had no clue what I might be getting when I placed the order, but that was the only way to take a look. A simple study plan at modest cost would have helped a lot.


The thing that would help the most would be for you to pick up this project and get it done. I'll be happy to cheer you on.

[outofthenorm]

Something along the lines of the WB study pages would be good. A small charge per page to offset costs of digitizing is more than fair. There are many. many plans I would like to see - and probably buy.

- Norm

[Bill Perkins]

Yes ;I think that's exactly what's needed . Specifically I want to buy the plans for Culler's 13 foot double paddle canoe ; also the beach boat Java.Is this still possible ?Are mail orders still accepted ? More generally I think his work under 25 feet deserves to be cataloged as you describe .The new book can't function as a catalog . The old book is expensive in the used book market and perhaps not complete either ? How can we know ?

Is there any way I can help ? I could work on site for a short spell ,staying with family nearby .I bought the plans for my 24 footer there (Culler's "Fast outboard launch for Percy Chubb") ;have a lifelong association with the Seaport (grew up nearby with my family as a member ) and a strong feeling for the importance and uniqueness of the Seaports plan collection .

I once went to the plans department after reading John Leather's book on Albert Strange .Armed with the list of designs in the back of that book I bought a few plans "blind "; the only way most of the collection can be approached .I was delighted to blunder onto the canoe yawl Augustina (25'*20'*7.2'*2.25) . There are so many unseen treasures in that collection alone ! Wenda ,pretty as she is ,has become THE Albert Strange design in the US largely by default .There is so much more .

[24hacker]

I would like to see Chris Craft, Hacker, Crouch plans -

[rbgarr]

Plans can still be ordered through the Seaport website, and just to check I entered Crouch in the online collections search. It brought up this:

http://mobius.mysticseaport.org/info.php?f=maker&type=browse&t=objects&s=Crouch%2C+George

[Thad]

Such lists are good, but without detailed description of the vessel (much less images of the sheet) they are only a help toward requesting further information needed before almost any ordering. I prefer knowledgeable people to talk to, but if it's going to be automated it needs to be really helpful with images and basic hull measurements for example.
Representing the Albert Strange Association (ASA), I have particular issues with Ships Plans and the museum authorities. Many Albert Strange drawings came to the museum collection with the papers of W. P. Stephens, out of their correspondence and a WPS visit to Strange. In the 80s members of the ASA traveled to Mystic from England, went through the boxes of WPS materials and found the Strange drawings which are now shown as part of the collection. At the time, the ASA acquired a set of those plans. Over time those plans have seen much handling and being in England where much of the interest in the Strange designs is located, the ASA requested, a couple of years ago, permission to have copies made, for preservation if not for distribution. This request was answered with a curt legalistic reply denying any copy rights, leaving the ASA with no recourse but ordering replacement copies and referring requests for plans to the museum, with attendant time, mailing and money changing complications. These plans came to the museum as a result of the friendship and mutual interest between AS and WPS. The ASA was hoping for a more friendly if not a more helpful response. With recent changes at Mystic I personally worry about the preservation and accessibility of the AS designs (as well as the whole of the boat and plan collection).

[Arko]

Yes, thumbnails would be a big help. I recently purchased three pages for the Mower-X Dory at $25 a page. I really had no clue what I might be getting when I placed the order, but that was the only way to take a look. A simple study plan at modest cost would have helped a lot.


The thing that would help the most would be for you to pick up this project and get it done. I'll be happy to cheer you on.

So,were you happy with what you got? It would be nice to able to see what they have.

[2MeterTroll]

just put thumbs of the plans up so you can see what you are looking at. same with the Smithsonian its frigging impossible to buy a plan on the verbal descriptions.

the plans for my sampan where on a website so i could see what the boat looked like.
but the catalog is simply words and has nothing like the descriptors needed to make a decision.

[rbgarr]

Thad,

Afaik donations of plans, files, etc. are made with restrictions in the deed of gift quite frequently and there's not much the institution can do about that. How accessible plans are (for building) in Mystic's collections is an unknown as far as my knowledge is concerned. It's not an issue I would want to get into, personally. A similar hurdle exists with the MIT collections and Aage Nielsen's designs as you may know.

Remember the whole Herreshoff 12 1/2 v. Cape Cod Shipbulding go-around here on the Forum? Let's not debate the topic all over again.

[TerryLL]

So,were you happy with what you got? It would be nice to able to see what they have.

Yup, got the right plans with enough info to build and rig. But these plans were never intended for an amateur builder, so they sure don't have all the nice details you might find, say, on a set of Oughtred plans. Just the basics, lines, offsets, and sail plan.

[TerryLL]

Yes ;I think that's exactly what's needed . Specifically I want to buy the plans for Culler's 13 foot double paddle canoe ; also the beach boat Java.Is this still possible ?


128.24 13' canoe. Pete's own “BUTTERNUT.” Double paddle and lapstrake, one man.

128.10 15' 9" vee bottom, double ended beachboat “JAVA” and “CRUZ del SUR.” No offsets.


I don't believe Culler's plans have been posted yet, but here are the Mystic catalog numbers for the two you mentioned. I have the full list if you need others.

[rbgarr]

The new book can't function as a catalog . The old book is expensive in the used book market and perhaps not complete either ? How can we know ?

Which book are you thinking of? One about Culler or Mystic's Watercraft?

[Thad]

Not the problem Dave.

[Bill Perkins]

I was referring to the 2 books specifically about Culler . I thought there was a rumor on this forum that the ships plans dept.had closed .Not true ? Hooray!

[rbgarr]

Here's an example of a thumbnail (Whirl) on the MIT-Hart collections webpage: http://web.mit.edu/museum/collections/nautical.html

[Thad]

Useless as a search tool except in the broadest way. If all the designs were shown as such a "thumbnail" (if you are refering to the one drawing shown) it would be useful.
When I said, "not the problem" I refer to both the tone and content of Mystic's answer. I know that the people who were greatful for ASA assistance and money in the past are long gone, as are the curators, or most of them, who were party to the ASA's request of the last couple of years, probably the administrators too but maybe not the lawyers. And, these are English designs freely shared with an American journalist for publication and discussion.

[Tom Montgomery]

Yes! I am for anything that would make Mystic's plan collection more accessible to prospective builders and modelers.

Yes ;I think that's exactly what's needed . Specifically I want to buy the plans for Culler's 13 foot double paddle canoe ; also the beach boat Java.Is this still possible ?Are mail orders still accepted ? More generally I think his work under 25 feet deserves to be cataloged as you describe .The new book can't function as a catalog . The old book is expensive in the used book market and perhaps not complete either ? How can we know?
Several years ago I purchased the plans for Pete Culler's Concordia Sloopboat from Mystic. At the time they required that one reference the design and page number from John Burke's book Pete Culler's Boats, which was (and remains) out-of-print. Luckily, I own a copy of the book.

The 12' 10 1/2" Butternut double paddle canoe is described beginning on page 23 of Burke's book. The beachboat Java (a v-bottomed pod for Paul Glazer) is described beginning on page 59. I hope that helps.

Some years before that I purchased the plans for Capt. Pete's Buzzard Bay Sloop from the late George Kelly. Mr. Kelly provided a price list of Capt. Pete's designs with indications of the level of detail of each plan package. He also charged less if you wanted to build a model rather than an actual boat. When I ordered my set of plans I included a short note saying that I understood the purchase gave me permission to build one (1) boat from the plans. When the plans arrived they included a short note from Mr. Kelly in which he wrote, "Build two if you'd like." :)

[Bob Cleek]

In years past, I've researched plans at Mystic, the Smithsonian and NMM Greenwich. There are a couple of issues. First, just because the designer's original papers, records, plans and manuscripts may be in a museum collection doesn't mean you can get always just a copy of the plans for a particular design from the museum and build a boat from them. Generally, the museums are interested in the materials for their historic and technical information, not their use by boatbuilders. Often, the content of the original materials remain copyrighted and the intellectual property rights to them belong to someone else, usually the designer's heirs. (Like any library full of books, you can go to the library and read the book, but you can't copy it without violating the author's copyright.)

As rbgarr noted, many of the materials are donated with many "strings attached." For example, the Haffenreuther "Herreshoff Mfg. Co." (SP?) Collection at MIT was first only "deposited" at MIT for safekeeping by Mr. Haffenreuther, the last manager at HMfgCo upon the company's ultimate demise. During that time, access to them was restricted to academic researchers and copies weren't available. It was not until his death, I believe, decades later, that his family converted the "depost" to a "donation" and MIT was authorized to release the materials. It's the same for many other collections. IIRC, you'll find William and John Atkins' original papers at Mystic, but the family is still marketing the plans directly. There is a similar arrangement for L.F. Herreshoff's original papers, which I believe are now with Mystic. At one time L.F.H.'s executrix, Muriel Vaughn, controlled licensed release of the plans for builders, and she was followed by her daughter, Elizabeth. (Not sure who controls the rights now, though.) All of J. Laurent Giles' original papers are with Greenwich, but the rights to build (and, hence, to release plan copies) continue to be held by Laurent Giles and Co., Lymington, UK. The Smithsonian Museum of American History, Transportation Division, has all of Chapelle's drawings, of course, together with the Historic American Merchant Marine Survey ("HAMMS") materials collected under the WPA's auspices under Chapelle's direction.

The second problem is what they call in the trade "cataloging." It is one thing to know that a library holds, say, "all N.G. Herreshoff's plans." It's quite another to find a particular item. These collections often arrive packed in dozens of cardboard boxes full of whatever unorganized papers someone packed up, often not inventoried or even labeled. Somebody figures out that all of "grandpa's boat drawings" have been in boxes out in the barn for years and "ought to be saved for posterity." They call up the museum and the museum, recognizing their value, takes them. At that point, whether and to what degree the "collection" gets "cataloged" depends on whether the museum has the money to do so and considers spending it worth while. What usually happens to begin with is that the "collection" gets a name and goes into the "stacks" with a description like "Smith Collection: fifteen boxes, miscellaneous drawings and correspondence." If somebody says, "I'd like to research the Smith Collection." they are directed to the "fifteen boxes." On the other hand, if somebody says, "I'd like a copy of Smith's Widget plans." they are likely to be talking to somebody who says, "Widget, smidget... you don't think I'm going to spend hours and hours going through fifteen boxes of papers looking for three sheets because somebody on the phone wants a copy!"

Proper cataloging to the degree that would permit quick access of the sort discussed in this thread can only be justified if the collection generates sufficient interest, and if there is sufficient profit in selling plans, to justify the time and expense of complete cataloging. That's often not the case.

Finally, if the institutions were to have the funds and interest in digitizing and indexing these collections and made them available on line, they'd pretty much lose the opportunity to cover their operating costs because people would just download the data and not buy copies. This is a current dilema in the library profession: "If what we have can be scanned, digitized and made available to all on line, we are fulfilling our function of preserving and disseminating valuable information, but, on the other hand, if we give it away free, we can't afford to continue to exist." Hard choices. At this point, aside from the very popular designs that, thorough repeated requests, curators have found it useful to index and keep available, you will have to go to the source repository and do your own research (or hire a local professional researcher, as many academics do) to find what you are looking for.

BTW, the good news is that, thanks to your tax dollars at work, the Historic American Architectural Survey ("HAAS") is being digitized and is partially available on line. It contains some boat plans as well, probably due to erroneous classifications or filings. There's a particularly fine set of lines for a Beetle whaling longboat in there, as well as some tugs and whatnot. Perhaps the Smithsonian will soon do the same with HAMMS.

[Tom Montgomery]

Thank you for the insight, Bob. Your explanation of the problems involved in properly cataloging the plans collection makes sense. If I ever become a wealthy man I will bequeath Mystic Seaport Museum a large sum of money toward that end. I hope someone beats me to it.

Perhaps everyone on the WBF should consider remembering the Mystic Seaport Museum in his will?

[Thad]

Mention of lawyers got you all defensive Bob? Dave asked the question and these are real issues. Too bad. Like we don't know and respect the details, but when we don't know the specific details, citing what might have been is just aggravating. Sorry.

[rbgarr]

I'm cautiously aiming for some mechanism by which research into what plans are available for people to build from (in the smaller boats arena), by whichever donations allow for it, can be made more user friendly. It may come to naught but it's worth the effort at least from my own perspective and interest.

It would especially be interesting to see designs that were drawn up but never completed or built. Proposals for one design classes come to mind, or tenders designed to serve a yacht that was never built, etc.

Larger craft are such a substantial commitment, and serious efforts to research and build them can be left to those with the resources to follow through. The designs for larger boats selected from the design collections in the Brays' "Boat Plans at Mystic..." are fabulous for dreaming and pondering, but I imagine few will be built (more's the pity). It must have been a wonderful experience to see, consider and choose the plans to include.

The 14' Crosby cat boat Trio, shown in that book, and the availability of her plans as shown is more in line with what I'd like to see made accessible for a wider range of designers in the collections. I'd think people considering the Joel White Marsh Cat and Garden Tom Cat would be interested in other options. Joe's Tid Bit by Winthrop Warner could be in the mix, too.

In this way, the cataloging/access effort would be limited to what is currently listed in their designers' lists and even that may be too expensive.

A lot of unknowns in the equation.

[2MeterTroll]

the thumb nail shown on the site would be good it gives you some idea what you are looking at. i dont have all the books and am not likely to spend the amount of cash it would take to track down all the books needed to make an informed decision from text only.

30 feet and under would be a good mark many of the small boats that are on paper have never been built and it might actually stimulate some interest that would be useful for these collections. imo we have a hand full of small boats that are currently chosen from while we have many many more locked away on paper rotting in a drawer because no one can see them.

the fear i see is that some one like me who is good with a pair of dividers and a ruler would be able to take dimensions off the thumbnail. this is true but many of us with that skill are going to buy the plans because its less effort to have them delivered than it is to pull lines from a picture.

[Bob Cleek]

Mention of lawyers got you all defensive Bob? Dave asked the question and these are real issues. Too bad. Like we don't know and respect the details, but when we don't know the specific details, citing what might have been is just aggravating. Sorry.

No, I wasn't feeling defensive at all... until now... I'm not exactly sure I understand your point.

To respond to Dave's question more directly, right or wrong, I'd have to say that perhaps the best that can be done is for some determined and knowledgeable person to invest their time in 1) identifying and selecting the sort of boats that would interest today's hobbyist builders, 2) negotiating permission to publish "study plans" of them in a book format (provides a way to earn fair compensation for the task) or on line (harder to make money this way) 3) secure contracts permitting sales of copies of the drawings with royalties to the copyright holders. You'd end up with a "catalog" in book form or on line, and a plans marketing operation.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't be much different than any of the other plan books that have come out, such as Culler's Boats, John Gardiner's small boat plans from Mystic, Roger Taylor's "Good Boats" series, "Sensible Cruising Designs," the Bray's "Mystic" books, or a lot of David Goodchild's "Toad Hall" publications. I don't see how you can do much else. The museums aren't going to have the money to put their stuff on line, I don't think.

I also share the concern about what might happen to these materials. There is a limit to what museums and libraries can hold and keep and they are always "deaccessioning" their collections. If there isn't enough interest, at some point, stuff goes bye-bye. My biggest concern with nautical material is the tendency, particularly with public maritime history institutions, to turn them into "tourist attraction" profit centers at the expense of their academic and archival functions. Then again, I guess we have to accept the fact that our interests are rather esoteric and with resources necessarily limited, we can't expect much to be allocated to subject matter with so relatively small a following.

[dreyer]

It would be REALLY helpful to have thumbnails of the plans but it is a huge undertaking.

I have slowly been purchasing all the necessary plans relating to my Rhodes 33.
There are 4 different sets of drawings for this boat (57 different sheets) & even with the inventory of the "Rhodes design 441 folder" it is hit and miss to get what I actually need as only half of them are dated. Looking at thumbs would clearly identify which is done by whom as the drafting styles are totally different.

There is:
A) Phil Rhodes original drawings
B) South Coasts drawings for pre 1947 boats (I think hulls 1 - 17)
C) South Coasts drawings for post 1947 boats (hulls 17 - 43)
D) Proposed drawings for a Fibreglass Rhodes 33 that never happened.

Still, I am so happy/lucky that these drawings even exist & I cannot wait to one day visit the museum & mull over the Rhodes archives.

It would be a HUGE task to start digitizing these drawings but at the same time a great idea in the interests of preservation. Surely digitizing the lot would be close to the cost of say 10 years maintenance on one of the vessels that is owned by the musuem?

I did have a lucky strike a few weeks back & notice there was a box of miscellaneous notes & notebooks in the rhodes catalogue. After a quick phone call to the collections dept it was confirmed there was a notebook of all Rhodes calculations & preliminary design notes for the "33". The paltry sum of $13 and I have a complete copy of it.

Bravo to the Seaport Museum & Staff!

[Thad]

Right. Maybe esoteric, but it is my belief that many of these boat designs are among the most beautiful and practical of human productions. As such they are human heritage. This is what inspired the founders of Mystic Seaport Museum. Keeping the memory of seafaring alive and inspiring appreciation for this important element of our history is the heart of my argument. If people do not speak up for their interests it is too easy for the argument to go against them. Unfortunately, right now Mystic has stated that their focus is on the tourist attraction side. "Intellectual property" may legally be bound by regulations and rights, but if it has real value it is everyone's property and the holders are custodians. Good luck to us all.

[shamus]

I'd like to browse the Rhodes collection on line, but I suspect that won't happen soon.

[Thad]

Glad to see the report of help you got Dreyer, that is encouraging!!