Penobscot 17 Rigging Question

[Dan from Jersey]

Greetings,

I have a question on the standing rigging for the Gunter rig on my Penobscot 17. The standing part of the mast is 16 feet, and my main sail area 95 square feet. The gaff is 11 feet long.

Would it be acceptable to substitute low-stretch rope halliards (say 3/8ths or perhaps ½ inch) in place of 1X19 wire for the forestay and shrouds? I checked the breaking strengths and the rope would be less, (approx. 3500 lbs in some cases compared to 4200 lbs for wire). But the rope would be in the ballpark.

My thinking is that I can get out on the water a bit faster if I go the rope route rather than the tooling, hardware and swage work required for wire (I have no experience with wire).

Appreciate any info you can share on this.

Best regards, Dan

[Thorne]

Surely Arch Davis can answer this question -- I found him quite responsive even when just discussing the study plans.

But as far as I know the high-tech Dyneema (is there another name for the product type other than High Modulus line?) rope was designed to replace wire rigging, and so should work fine for this application as long as you tension it correctly. Rigger Brion Toss often recommends this option.

[Dan from Jersey]

Hi Thorne,

Arch and I emailed about it yesterday. He said he wasn't sure about rope vs. wire, (or most rigging questions for that matter). Then he recommended I contact an experienced sailor.

Apparently he is more of a motorboat guy.

So no problem - I thought I would give the WB Forum a try - what's not to like? :)

Thanks for the suggestion though, I think I saw "Dyneema" or something like that in a catalog somewhere. Since the stick is only 16 feet long, I'm pretty confident it will work fine. I just need to ensure my jib hanks will slide smoothly on the forestay.

I'll keep you posted.

Best regards, Dan

[Ian McColgin]

Are there shrouds as well as the headstay? If not, there's a very high chance that the mast is robust enough that you can just lead the halyard to the stem and combine the functions.

The exotic low-stretch lines are substitutied for wire in many modern high tech rigs. Go to Brion Toss's site (www.briontoss.com) and find "spartalk" for leads on the tricks of evey tieing or splicing the stuff. But also for light rigs, there are variations on pelican hooks that make very rapid set-up of wire stays and shrouds nearly instant.

G'luck

[Dan from Jersey]

Hi Ian,

Yep, I have a forestay and port / starboard shrouds. So I think if I use some low-stretch line, it should be enough to support the rig - the main is only 95 sq/ft and the jib is only 37 sq/ft, so it shouldn't be too bad.

In the big picture, the vikings were able to sail the stormy North Atlantic without rod rigging - I figure I should be able to survive a few square miles on a reservoir using rope.....

Best regards, Dan

[Ian McColgin]

So, I looked up the design.

I'd for sure use wire on the head stay as the modern exotics don't take the friction of the jib clips very well. You could, by the way, incorporate a wire luff jib and merriman style roller-furler and not have a permant seperate stay.

I'd use wire for the shrouds as well. It's far less difficult to set up than those slippery exotics and presents very little cross-section windage. Low stretch dacron is substantially fatter than exotics or wire and the thickness you need to have acceptably low stretch for this rig presents it's own problems and cost issues.

Sure the vikings crossed with woven hide ropes. And other Penobscot 17 rigs have no sails. But for the sliding gunter rig with its high mast loading and the need to add the stress it takes to keep the jib luff reasonably straight, you need essentially zero stretch. That would be wire.

Look on some dinghey sites and then the hardware catalogues for the systems that set up to tune with not much more than snap in place.

G'luck

[Tom W.]

Just for another perspective, I used wire bought at duckworks.com, 1/8" wire, for my Penob 17. they have ferrules, tools, and instructions on their use on their website. It took an afternoon of work to set up the rigging, and goes together quickly at the boat launch. No stretch, and not terribly expensive, just works.
I have had no experience with rope-type shrouds, but it's surely ok if Brion Toss recommends it.

[Thorne]

Dan -

My bad - I should have guessed you'd have asked Arch first. The high-tech line like Dyneema should work well to replace wire rigging -- I got some of the Samson Rope's AmSteel Dyneema for use in a tube cleat that was chewing through regular braided marine line, and it shows no wear after several seasons. The stuff is TOUGH.

If the rig is designed to rely on support lines I'd be sure to give it good ones -- you really don't want it to fail! And the Dyneema is much easier on the varnish, paint and sails than metal wire, so rigging will be easier on just about everything including your hands.

Pics??

[Ian McColgin]

Sounds like the question was asked with the answer already in mind.

Dacron won't do as the thickness you really need for acceptably low stretch is seriously clunky for this rig.

If you want to spend the extra money on exotics and if you have the patience to learn how to manipulate it so it stays put, have fun.

G'luck

[SBrookman]

Dan, what reservoir do you plan on launching it? Round Valley by chance? I hope to be launching and sailing on it sometime in August. Got some sails to sew (eh, wife does, I hope), snotters to tie and rigging to figure out first.

[Dan from Jersey]

Hi Steve,

Yep, I plan to launch at Round Valley once the rigging details are sorted out (and I finish sewing the main - my wife's patience ran out on my boat addiction long ago :) ).

I'm hoping to get the boat and trailer registered next week while I'm on vacation. I might have a slight "issue" with the NJSP and some kind of boating license requirement. Ah yes, another day in paradise here in Jersey.

Btw, thanks to all for all the info and assistance. I'm on a pretty steep learning curve here and it's great to be able to tap into everyone's exeprience. I'll try to get a couple pictures loaded up next week once I turn my little honey over (just finished the paint job last week, so there's not much to see right now).

Later, Dan

[SBrookman]

No motor, no license required in NJ, but you do have to get it inspected by the NJSP to prove you built and didn't steal it. Here's the link if you don't have it: http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Vehicle/Boats.htm
(http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Vehicle/Boats.htm)

[James McMullen]

Amsteel is awesome! I replaced the wire jibstay on my Stone Horse Sloop with it at the beginning of the season and will definitely be using it again!

[Dan from Jersey]

Hi Steve, Hi James,

Thanks for the info.

Since it was raining, I headed over to the local hardware store, Home Depot, Lowes and snooped around. I found some 3/16th stainless steel cable the said suitable for "marine" use. Looks like 7X19 from what I could see. I was pretty leary at the price - 57 cents a foot - was expecting $2.00 or so. They also had a two-handed swaging tool for $28 bucks. It looked like something in a catalog for $280.00+. So to make a long story short, I jumped in - bought the gear (about $150.00 total). Once I get her turned over tomorrow, I'll see if I can get the standing rigging in place.

It looks like fun - hope it goes well.

I'm concerned about the wire though - at 57 cents a foot - it's screaming "let the buyer beware"...

I'll keep ya posted.

Oh yeah, one other thing, Steve - next time your up at Round Valley, maybe we could catch up - it would be great to get acquainted with some one else who has the same wooden boat addiction. :)

Later, Dan

[Dan from Jersey]

Btw, is there a preferred method for connecting shrouds / forestay to the hull fitting? (I plan to use a turnbuckle arrangement).

I can use a thimble for the wire, but was looking at some compression fittings also. These look better to my eyes since there would be less "stuff" to snag sail and line.

[sshep]

Dan,The statement from SBrookman is not correct.You will need to register and title your boat in NJ.All Sailboats over 12' and any length boat with a motor.Tom S

[sshep]

Dan,I'd also like to invite you down to our annual Delaware River Chpt TSCA meet on Sept 12.Its at Union LK in Millville NJ.Thats South Jersey.We have a fellow up your way who comes down with some Melonseeds.Its a fun day with a varity of boats such as Melonseeds,A Tuckup,Duckers a railbird skiff,kayaks ,a dory and what ever else shows up.Let me know if interested and I'll get you more details.This invite is open to everybody. Tom S

[Dan from Jersey]

Well, I spent an hour + at the NJ Motor Vehicle Commission trying to get my Trailex trailer registered. Turns out the MVC won't accept my certificate of ownership from Trailex because the "released" section wasn't filled out properly. So I have to figure out a plan B. I purchased the trailer 16 months ago, so I'm not sure what kind of response I'll get from Trailex. Hopefully it will work out.

Once I get the trailer registered, I have to take my boat to a NJ SP Marine Inspection Center so the State Police can inspect and issue a hull number.

Then all I have to do is go back to the MVC and register the boat.

I'm pretty depressed about this unfortunate set of events. Oh well, it's just another friggin' day in paradise here in Jersey.

On a more positive note, I got my boat turned over and it's back on the trailer. Installed the centerboard too, so I managed to snatch some progress from the jaws of bureaucratic defeat.

(btw, thanks for the invite Tom, sounds great - I have to check the calendar, but for now, I'm in).

[SBrookman]

I meant no NJ boating license required for motorless boats. I'm doing the title thing now. Didn't have trouble getting my Trailex registered (must have got lucky with it filled out right.) But no title required for that because of it's light weight.

[Dan from Jersey]

glad to hear it,

if i didn't have bad luck, i wouldn't have any at all. :)

Castlecraft folks are fixing it for me - it will probably take 5 or 6 days. no big deal.

[tbarrows]

Dan,

You may wish to follow the link below to observe how I have chosen to rig mine. Wire stays but very quick to rig and get out on the water.

www.callisto-sailcraft.com

-tom