Substitution for white oak

[SScoville]

I am considering building a plywood on frame boat designed by William Atkin - River Rat.

I would like to substitute cypress for white oak in the frames, chine log, etc. I would obviously have to increase the dimensions of the lumber to make up for the weaker wood. Any thoughts on this?

What about some other substitute?

My reasons are: white oak is not readily available to me and it seems to be tricky to glue.

[JimD]

Avoiding white oak is a good idea. Around here doug fir is plentiful and makes an excellent substitute. Don't know about cypress.

[Mrleft8]

White Oak is easily available to you. You just need to know where to look. You also live in Live Oak country, which is a superlative boat building timber.
Cypress is fine for lots of things, but I'd look for WO or LO for your frames....Or Osage Orange.

[Mrleft8]

Avoiding white oak is a good idea.

HUH!? What planet are you on?:confused:

[David G]

Just some quick first thoughts.

River Rat always struck me as a great lazy summer river/lake boat. If you're gonna tackle a plywood boat of that size, you'll probably want to read up on epoxy. Here's the most comprehensive and focused book on using epoxy in boatbuilding:

http://www.westsystem.info/gobronboco5t1.html

They'll tell you how to epoxy white oak successfully. I also find it hard to believe that you can't find white oak in your area.

If you insist on substituting, I'd be leery of going to something as light weight (when compared to w. oak) as cypress. Douglas fir or Southern yellow pine maybe. Cherry or Black Walnut, perhaps. Maybe even some White Ash.

G'luck,

[Mrleft8]

www.primevalwood.com
Is in Elizabethtown, SC

[SScoville]

That's Elizabethtown, NC. I should not say it's not readily available. There are a few places around here I can get it.

It looks like I'm gonna get some longleaf heart pine - about 100 years old. Thanks for the advice.

[JimD]

HUH!? What planet are you on?:confused:

I would never use white oak on an epoxy glued plywood boat but suit yourself.

[Mrleft8]

OOPS! Well....NC.....SC.....From up here it all sounds the same! :D Still only 92 miles away.... Sounds like a road trip! :D

[Mrleft8]

I would never use white oak on an epoxy glued plywood boat but suit yourself. Not trying to start an argument, but why? White Oak is strong, rot resistant, affordable, available, and relatively easy to work.

[JimD]

Not trying to start an argument, but why? White Oak is strong, rot resistant, affordable, available, and relatively easy to work.

Sheesh, this one had been done a million times. Where ya been, Lefty? The annecdotal evidence regarding epoxy and white oak incompatability is compelling. There have been many, many, testemonials from experience builders sharing their oak/epoxy failure stories. If you want to take a chance that its all malarkey naturally that's your choice. If I were building trad with steam bent frames I would want only white oak. For epoxy glued plywood I would want almost anything but.

[Mrleft8]

Ah. Right.... The old epoxy/White Oak argument....OK won't go there. My 30 years experience must be an anomaly ;)

[gazzer]

White oak shouldn't be that hard to find in your area. Have you tried Anchor Hardwoods just up the road from you in Wilmington?

I would consider Douglas fir or yellow pine to be better softwoods than cypress for framing. White ash is good; however won't have the durability that WO does. I'm in North Carolina and have problems finding good fir.

I was concerned about the gluing issue with WO on my current build and was about to spring for some mahogany. Decided instead to pull from the stack of black walnut which was gotten cheaply many years ago waiting for a use. Reports are that it is a reasonably good boat wood; however I did read something about it being bad luck.

Good Luck

-g

[kc8pql]

Use southern yellow pine if you don't want to use the w. oak. Cypress is to weak and splintery for frames and chines.

[SScoville]

I'm getting the pine basically for free, sort of. A couple of favors - a neighbor cut the trees because he didn't want them falling on his house. A friend is going to help me haul them. The lumber mill is going to cut and dry them in exchange for half the lumber.

Several other trees were cut by one of these guys who cuts trees out of people's yards. He has no way to haul them and says I can have them too. It's ashamed these old trees would just go to waste if my friend and I weren't going to go through all the trouble to haul them. The guy that cut them says they're old growth and the lumber mill says after about two weeks on the ground they start to go bad.

[Jay Greer]

Purple Heart is an alternative to white oak.
Jay

[JimConlin]

Ah. Right.... The old epoxy/White Oak argument....OK won't go there. My 30 years experience must be an anomaly ;)
Lefty, I've had the same anomaly, too.

Incidentally, Rockport Marine is overhauling the S&S yawl Bolero and is laminating WO structural members with West G/Flex epoxy.

[pcford]

If you have not had problems gluing white oak with an epoxy you have not been paying attention.

There are newer epoxy formulations which are supposed to glue white oak well. I have never used them; I presume they work. However, one could point out that the existence of such a product does suggest that there just might be a problem.

[botebum]

Anchor Hardwoods in Wilmington, NC can get you anything you want or desire including white oak. Give me a holler when you're headed up. We'll have a cold one if I'm not too busy being ejected from another country.

Doug

[floatingkiwi]

If you have not had problems gluing white oak with an epoxy you have not been paying attention.

There are newer epoxy formulations which are supposed to glue white oak well. I have never used them; I presume they work. However, one could point out that the existence of such a product does suggest that there just might be a problem.
.I use Tap premium marine 2 to 1. I have nothing to compare it to but if it glued wood,(oak), any better, it would be overkill.It will tear the timber back from the join.

[Bruce Hooke]

I'm getting the pine basically for free, sort of. A couple of favors - a neighbor cut the trees because he didn't want them falling on his house. A friend is going to help me haul them. The lumber mill is going to cut and dry them in exchange for half the lumber.

Several other trees were cut by one of these guys who cuts trees out of people's yards. He has no way to haul them and says I can have them too. It's ashamed these old trees would just go to waste if my friend and I weren't going to go through all the trouble to haul them. The guy that cut them says they're old growth and the lumber mill says after about two weeks on the ground they start to go bad.

Amidst all the hubbub about white oak and epoxy, I want to say that "old growth"* southern yellow pine sounds like a good substitute and it is great that you are using wood that would otherwise go to waste.

The one thing that has me puzzled is that the lumber mill is suggesting it is so rot prone. If that is the case then it sounds like it would be a poor choice for a boat, but I thought SYP was supposed to be quite rot resistant. :confused:

*I put "old growth" in quotes because I have doubts about whether this is truly old growth, which would mean it is from a forest that has NEVER been cut. There is VERY little true old growth left in the eastern U.S. However, if they are old (but sound) trees the wood should be quite good, I'd think...

[kc8pql]

The one thing that has me puzzled is that the lumber mill is suggesting it is so rot prone. If that is the case then it sounds like it would be a poor choice for a boat, but I thought SYP was supposed to be quite rot resistant. :confused:Rot isn't the problem. It's the cracks, checks and splits that will start if it lays around in the log to long and starts drying from the ends.

[Bob Cleek]

No question that epoxy and white oak aren't the best of marriages. (But I do have a half dozen epoxy laminated-in-place replacement frames in my boat that have held up fine for over 15 years... and I shared a few shed tears when I watched the epoxy laminated stem of a friend's 38 footer disasterously delaminate a few weeks after her launch, so, go figure!) Then again, I am not a fan of holding a boat together with epoxy regardless of what wood it's made of.

That said, "River Rat" is a box-scow relatively devoid of any serious curves and certainly no compound curves, planked in plywood. Atkin never intended it to be epoxied. It was intended to be planked with marine plywood and painted. Epoxy wasn't even available when the boat was designed (nor, IIRC, was fibreglass.) I don't see how using any decent frame stock instead of white oak (finestkind), such as purpleheart (just as good), or Doug fir (okay for a second choice), would make any difference. The plywood will be screwed to the frames. Were one to sheath the hull in epoxy and fabric, that would be on the outside. You shouldn't have any need to put epoxy on the oak in that boat at all.

As for the relative rot resistance of the framing stock species, well... a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link. Why worry yourself to death about rot resistance of your frames when you are going to plank it in "hem/fir" plywood? Eh?

Funny how we've becomed conditioned to think "epoxy" as soon as we hear "plywood," isn't it!

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/images/RiverRat-1.gif

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Oar/images/RiverRat-3.gif

Now, if I were really serious about building "River Rat," I'd build the hull, deck and likely the house, out of welded aluminum and finish her off with wood. Sure, it's not a "wooden" boat, but it would definitely be a "better" boat than the same lines done in plywood and you can always put your wooden creative energies to tricking her out with wood details. Lighter, most likely, probably yielding significant savings in fuel costs. Relatively impervious to rocks and snags and easily run up on shore like a landing craft without worrying about chafing damage to the bottom. None of the rot and maintenance worries of plywood. Probably not a whole lot of difference in cost over quality plywood and oak frames, with a lot of savings in time and labor. (Transposing the scantlings to aluminum would be a snap, given her simple scow shape.) Even if you had to hire a welder to put it together for you, you'd surely make that up in resale value, I'd reckon.

[SScoville]

I'm gonna stick with wood for now. My thinking was to glue the plywood to the frames in addition to screwing it. And also to give everything a couple of coats of epoxy. It's not that I love epoxy. I have only built stitch and glue boats so far and find that epoxy takes a lot of the fun out of things. But, for what I understand to be the benefits of coating wood with epoxy, it's just too easy not to do it. I was also thinking I'd give the hull a layer of xynole - we'll see. I'm still in the "research and development" stage right now. I have ordered the plans. I need to get this wood gathered this week and finish the boat I'm building currently, what a mania this is.

As for the pine - here are some excerpts of my conversation with the guy at the lumber mill. When I told him one of the trees was two feet in diameter and appeared to have almost no sapwood, he said it was probably at least 100 years old. I don't guess that's virgin growth, just old. It's amazing how slow longleaf grows.

He said I didn't want to leave them on the ground for more than two weeks because there is some bug that will get into them, nothing about rot. He also said something about "staining," I think.

[S B]

I'm getting the pine basically for free, sort of. A couple of favors - a neighbor cut the trees because he didn't want them falling on his house. A friend is going to help me haul them. The lumber mill is going to cut and dry them in exchange for half the lumber.

Several other trees were cut by one of these guys who cuts trees out of people's yards. He has no way to haul them and says I can have them too. It's ashamed these old trees would just go to waste if my friend and I weren't going to go through all the trouble to haul them. The guy that cut them says they're old growth and the lumber mill says after about two weeks on the ground they start to go bad.
Worth noting, if you strike a nail, are you on the halves for the cost? Back yard trees have plenty of them. Halving the take,be there when it comes from the saw,one good one for you/one for me, same for the fire wood.

[SScoville]

Probably North Inlet mostly. That's across Winyah Bay, between N. Island and Debordieu Island. Probably down to the Santee Delta and McClellenville too.

[kenjamin]

I just glued up a new rudder using white oak and the new G-flex epoxy from West Systems. G-flex is especially formulated to bond oily woods like white oak. It was very easy to use with its one-to-one mix ratio and seems to grab like old horse glue and it's much thicker than regular epoxy.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Glue2411.jpg
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Grinder2416.jpg
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Oak2422.jpg
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Rudder2434.jpg

It would be rather expensive to build a whole boat with the G-flex and white oak frames but what a strong boat it would be!

If it was me, I'd steer clear of yellow pine and go with fir and regular epoxy. Fir takes goo better than YP and it's lighter I believe.

[Bill Mercer]

Could you use Khaya or some other sort of African mahogany as a WO substitute in in the frames? Not quite the rot resistance, but fairly stable and easy to glue, no?

[Krunch]

I just glued up a new rudder using white oak and the new G-flex epoxy from West System

That G-Flex ain't cheap, and it's murder to work with, but boy does it stick (and blush)! :eek:

[alkorn]

Yellow pine has been used as a substitute wood for white oak since before Billy Atkin's day. He mentions it as a possible substitute in many of his design descriptions. Not for steam-bent pieces, since it doesn't bend well.

Yellow pine is inexpensive and plentiful here in the Southeast, but you have to be careful in buying it. Much of what shows up is fast-grown stuff with very wide growth rings. Not good boatbuilding stuff. However, even at a big-box store you can find some pieces with narrow rings if you're willing to pick through enough lumber.