Find me a Great Lakes boat!

[Maximus]

I'm putting on the finishing touches to my current project and am wondering what might be an awesome homemade boat for Lake Superior. I kind of like the Norwalk Island Sharpie.

Here's the requirements.

Trailer sailer (with a 6 cylinder pickup)
Probably under 26 ft (costs matters so small helps)
Shallow draft for gunkholing
Open to all rigs types
Can be open or have a cuddy/cabin
I'm young so going fast helps
I'd prefer strip built or plywood (it's what I know)

Give a suggestion, I'd like to pick as many brains as possible.

Brent

[TerryLL]

The Windward 24 from CMD. A little simpler build than the NIS, but the NIS 23 would meet your specs.

http://www.cmdboats.com/images/windward24.jpg

http://www.cmdboats.com/index.htm

[aldebaran]

I´ve never been in the US, so I dont know lake superior, but I like this design. Its to long, I know but I´m sure its fast:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery.php?KID=74

There´s also some Bruce Kirby designs that you might find interesting.

[Sayla]

A Cape Cutter 19 - lapstrake ply - will tow behind the family car

or if it's a Ford, well, think big ;) - I'm looking for critique on the Cape Henry 21, Terrapin 25, Paketi - large plywood trailerable shoal draft for somewhat protected water, and I wonder if the Terrapins are faster

That Haiku does look pretty good, and fast.
How easy is it to reef the sails for a NIS in a blow?

[C. Ross]

Superior is cold (http://www.coastwatch.msu.edu/superior/s1.html) (follow the link, you can get 33 degree surface temps on July 24!) and can get rough quickly.

I wouldn't want to be on Superior in a sharpie, I'd want something with better self-righting stability, and less of a flat bottom prone to pounding. Especially if you want to build with strip or ply, which will make for a light boat.

How about one of Oughtred's double-ended beachboats?

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/gallery.php?KID=34

[Milo Christensen]

Mackinaw boat. (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/188-Mackinaw-Boat/productinfo/400-014/)

[Paul Pless]

Give a suggestion, I'd like to pick as many brains as possible.Great thread idea, I'll be following with new interest.;)

[ewsponberg]

I am an original Michigander and still go back to Marquette where I have a camp home right on the shore of Lake Superior. Might I propose my Delft 25: The file attachment limits on this forum are pretty low, and I cannot make clear enough picture files at the required size to post directly. But you can see the details of the Delft 25 on my website:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/DelftPlan.htm

It may not fit your requirements in every respect, but it is a plywood trailer sailer that is unsinkable and has a very nice cabin with 6' headroom.

Eric

[aldebaran]

After seeing the last 2 socalled trailer boats, I ask myself:

How heavy can a boat be in order to be a useable trailerboat.

I would say some 2 - 2500lbs max.

[TerryLL]

Eric,
Your Delft is a beauty little pocket cruiser and I'm sure it would do very well on the big lakes, as well as coastal cruising. But the 5500# displacement would sure put it beyond my ability to trailer, not that it couldn't be done with the right tow.

[JOBBER]

I´ve never been in the US, so I dont know lake superior, but I like this design. Its to long, I know but I´m sure its fast:

They thought this was a pretty good Lake Superior boat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Edmund_Fitzgerald

[John Smith]

Many lovely boats are being suggested. I think a question, given the nature of the lake, is if a smaller self righting boat you can trail wouldn't be preferable over a larger boat that is not self righting.

[TerryLL]

Many lovely boats are being suggested. I think a question, given the nature of the lake, is if a smaller self righting boat you can trail wouldn't be preferable over a larger boat that is not self righting.

Well, Maximus is looking for a shallow draft trailerable boat. There are a few very capable shallow draft designs out there that are self righting (to a degree). One of my favorites, maybe already mentioned, is Oughtred's Gray Seal.

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/greyseal.jpg http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/greysealplan.gif

[Sayla]

I was suprised to see this photo of a single axle trailer with a ?4cyl max car and Iain Oughtreds 'Farne Islander' - worth a thought - beautiful boat

http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=17&pictureid=396

[Paul Pless]

Iain Oughtreds 'Farne Islander' - worth a thought - beautiful boat
Beautiful Indeed! Look up for a mighty fine example.

[Maximus]

Well you guys are making things interesting. I admit that the flat bottom boats and their tendancy to pound crossed my mind, but I feel that if handled properly they would do fine.

Sharpies surely fit the bill, and again the talk about their seaworthiness sits in the back of my mind. That said, I really like some of the suggestions. The CMD boat I've come across before and like, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to move me away from the NIS boats, mostly because of the cabin size or lack there of. If I go with a cabined boat it would hopefully have some good volume. Again, open boats for camping/gunkholing might be just fine too.

Welsford's boats are pretty cool and I've enjoyed reading some of the accounts about the adventures they have. I'm sure they're more than capable and the new model looks like a tough customer.

Fianlly, a lot of double enders here too. I'm not sure why, but they don't appeal to my style sense. There seaworthiness in general would never be questioned, many double enders have proved to be tough cookies.

JOBBER...someone had to bring up the Fitz...I was in Duluth last night and was thinking about her too.

ERIC...Nice boats, I'll have to keep looking over your line, maybe a little heavy for my needs, but still very nice.

MILO...The Mac boats are awesome handsdown, but way too much work to sail for me. If I'm bringing my girlfriend with I need to keeps things simple...haha

Sayla...Dudley's boats are surely nice, I think they're along the lines of the NIS and I'm not sure which I like more.

Thx for posting guys...keep em coming.

Brent/Maximus

[peterAustralia]

hi

I have a flat bottomed boat, they can be good. In my opinion they are not the ideal for rough weather (others are free of course to disagree). What is your budget?

I suggest a large capable day boat with some sort of ballast, in either a fixed keel or a steel centerplate. If you wish to get to that secluded sheltered beach you can carry an inflatable dingy or tow a small tender. Typical dimensions are 3:1 length to beam.

Suggest mostly decked for keeping the water out, with covered ends for storage/floatation. So if you google large dayboats what do you get?

swift 6m dayboat
http://www.selway-fisher.com/OtherDB.htm#BALTIC
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Highlanders.htm
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/Merrywing.html
http://www.boatplans.dk/boat_plans.asp?id=12
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-006
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17.htm


rig maybe jib and sprit rigged mainsail.

a while back there was a website taht had 103 plans for traditional baltic small craft. These were mostly rigged with jib and a sprit sail. Unfortunately the link has died and the plans can no longer be had, sigh.

[damnyankee]

Don Kurylko Has two nice boats that might fit what you want. The Myst http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/buildd18.htm comes to mind. Its open and smaller than some of the other stuff people have suggested, but I think you should take a look at it.

Christopher

[ewsponberg]

How about the Sea Pearl 21 and/or the Sea Pearl 28, built by Marine Concepts:

Here's the 21' monohull version:
http://www.marine-concepts.com/monohull.html

Here's the 21' trimaran version:
http://www.marine-concepts.com/trimaran.html

The Sea Pearl 28 is out of production, but you can see one here:
http://www.seapearlboats.org/html/my_boats.html

And some drawings here:
http://www.sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=4340



From John Smith: Many lovely boats are being suggested. I think a question, given the nature of the lake, is if a smaller self righting boat you can trail wouldn't be preferable over a larger boat that is not self righting.


It appears from the thread that trailerability is really important, so one could begin with the limits of trailerability, particularly as far as weight is concerned. That may bring you into a 21'-22' length, so wrap the hull and accommodation around that. It is possible to make such a boat both self-righting and unsinkable. To ease the trailerability aspect, it should have a lifting keel and lifting or removeable rudder.

Eric

[aldebaran]

In the 21" size, have a look at Welshfords Penguin http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/index.htm
Sturdy and relatively big. Lake superior wont be to big for that one.

[Maximus]

Budget? I have a budget? No, see I'm not married so I'm not required to have one of those! Selway-Fischer has some cool boat, the Kane and Able boats I like and more.

All pretty good ideas. Some hit the nail on the head when it came to trailering. Superior is a couple hours north of me and Bayfield is all that much further. Since this is more about brainstorming, I like the variety of opinions so far. This would also be a nice longer term project to boot. I have my daysailer and access to a few other boats to hold me over.

The new Pilgram <sp> boat I want to look more into when I have time.

Tomorrow it's back to work on the boat I have now.

B

[Maximus]

How about this one?

http://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpieritning.jpg

http://www.thomassondesign.com/choosing/small_boats/sharpie_600.aspx#bilder

[Eric D]

I am an original Michigander and still go back to Marquette where I have a camp home right on the shore of Lake Superior. Might I propose my Delft 25: The file attachment limits on this forum are pretty low, and I cannot make clear enough picture files at the required size to post directly. But you can see the details of the Delft 25 on my website:

http://www.sponbergyachtdesign.com/DelftPlan.htm

It may not fit your requirements in every respect, but it is a plywood trailer sailer that is unsinkable and has a very nice cabin with 6' headroom.

Eric

Eric, I do like the safety factor of your boats, not to mention the ease of sailing with the lack of rigging....I am on Green Bay and get into Lake Michigan at times and I can't tell you how often the weather changes rapidly out here and that "perfect day" for a small light boat turns snotty and having a heavier boat is infinitely better.

Hmmm, now you have me thinking.....nice web page too, I have just lost 2 hours reading it all.. Thanks.

Eric

Sorry for the side bar Max, darn nice boat there to my eyes and needed to say it. Good luck in your search, several good ideas coming from this.

[TomF]

I like the Pilgrim a lot, but might instead think of Pathfinder. Lake Superior can get a nasty and pretty tall chop fairly fast, but doesn't have the big-wave potential of the ocean ... so prolly Pilgrim is a bit of overkill, for some coastal cruising at least. She'd do well, of course, but you'd be sacrificing speed and manouverability (and easier trailerability!) for the better motion etc. in a sea.

Enough Pathfinders have worked through nasty waves etc. that we're not talking about some fragile little violet either.

BTW, I remember the storm that sank the Edmund Fitzgerald; we lived in S. Ste. Marie at the time, and I was out delivering newspapers in that wind. An ugly, ugly night.

[JOBBER]

Lake Superior can get a nasty and pretty tall chop fairly fast, but doesn't have the big-wave potential of the ocean

The problem with all the Great Lakes is "bath tub effect" waves. This might warrant the more stable craft. Superior water temp is also a major concern even in summer. There are a number of wooden wrecks from the early 1900's that are preserved due to water temps.

[Tom Montgomery]

I like Francois Vivier's dsigns. He has a number of trailor-sailers that are either strip or plywood lapstrake construction: http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_classic.html

I like the Ebihen 18

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/vivier/ebihen%2018/ebihen_18_port-blanc_360.jpg


http://www.vivierboats.com/albumsen/ebihen/bourcet-malet/Ebihen-pict0182.jpg

[aldebaran]

How about this one?

http://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpieritning.jpg

http://www.thomassondesign.com/choos...00.aspx#bilder (http://www.thomassondesign.com/choosing/small_boats/sharpie_600.aspx#bilder)

English version:
http://www.thomassondesign.com/choosing/small_boats/sharpie_600.aspx?culture=en

I like it. Its a very pretty sharpie especially the two mast lug version. Also, I like its size, and its weight. This will be a cheap and very usefull little craft.
As I told you, I dont know lake Superior, so take what I say like that.

On this foro, there´s a tendency to say that more weight equalls seaworthyness. I dont agree. weight can be good but things are not so easy.
I´m from Scandinavia. (Now I live in Spain) I´ve done a lot of cruising there. We have a tradition of sailing relatively light and very seaworthy crafts. I imagine its from the history of the viking ships, which were indeed very light and seaworthy. The sea in Scandinavia is not like the ocean, but it can be rough with a lot of wind and a very choppy sea. I´ve crossed Skagerak (sea between Norway Denmark and Sweeden) in some 16 - 20 knots in a 20" doubleender 2200 lbs, tacking all the way. It took its time, but no problem. Its a lot about not fighting the sea. Dont go to high, dont hammer the sea, gain speed and be light. I´ve also been out there in 30 knots+ in a folkboat, another light and very seaworthy boat. It wasnt nice, but again, no problem. Dont fight the sea. go light.
Some of the msot seaworthy crafts existing are the doubleenders based on viking ships. Oughtreds boats are very fine examples. They are VERY light and lift above the sea instead of going through it. Its more a matter of knowing how. There is one place, where I would always prefer big and heavy, and thats open ocean with rocks and a strong tidal current. But I dont think we are talking about that.

Back to the Sharpie600. I´m sure that this design has its limits. Flatbottom, light, shallow draght etc. But in the end its more about knowing its limits.
In a boat like that I would happily cruise around the baltic sea. (Its a Scandinavian design) I would listen to the weather forecast and stay ashore in bad weather, I would take my time learning how the boat reacts reefed in gusty weather etc. I´m sure its a fun boat to sail and cheap to build. Light boats are a lot cheaper to build.

[LaPointe]

I would contact Daniel Skira of Daniel Skira Yatchs. Great designer

[TomF]

I like Francois Vivier's dsigns. He has a number of trailor-sailers that are either strip or plywood lapstrake construction: http://www.vivierboats.com/html/stock_classic.html

I like the Ebihen 18


Wow - it's lovely. Beautiful detailing too - very impressive. I'm always hot/cold on the virtually plumb bow on many of the traditional French boats, but that cutter rig simply looks stunning.

I'm very interested in how Vivier's used water ballast to (as he put it) solve the problem of keeping a small heavy displacement hull trailerable. Some fixed lead ballast and a heavy centre-board, but using water ballast to complete the displacement is a great idea.

As you prolly know, I've been very taken with the Hampton 17 design that Chapelle uses to illustrate lofting in his Boatbuilding book. We had a couple of long-ish threads about that design, which rather fizzled when someone came 'round who actually had a traditionally built version of the boat, which is very heavy. But using Vivier's approach with water ballast to add the displacement .. makes it possible to think about again.

Hmmmm...

(here is the second of the threads on the Hampton ... http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68846&highlight=Hampton )

[Maximus]

I thought I'd post a few pictures of some designs that I think are pretty cool.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Tosherp2.jpghttp://www.thomassondesign.com/img/sharpieritning.jpghttp://www.cmdboats.com/images/windward24.jpghttp://www.cmdboats.com/images/windward21.jpghttp://www.minitransat650.com/assets/images/p2_in_england.jpg

[Maximus]

Why not a mini...there are a few plywood designs out there!

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Why not a mini...there are a few plywood designs out there!

Dix Design Didi Cruise Mini would be an ideal fit.

[Maximus]

Does anyone have any experience with sharpies of the great lakes?